Health Care in One Sentence!

[C-bus]

Call me crazy, but I want the smartest people in the world aspiring to be wealthy American doctors. I also want the greatest chemists in the world putting all of their resources into creating cures and treatments. Won't happen without a level of profitability. Did you hear about that Saudi prince who sought out the finest surgeon in all of Great Britain for his heart surgery? Me either. If we strive for mediocrity, we'll surely achieve it. And we do have Medicaid. And it's not that hard to get on, if you are truly poor. The people who feel wronged are those who can afford, but resent doing so.

[Disclaimer]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC517636/

Of almost 25 000 bypass operations done in the United Kingdom each year, the average mortality for 2003 was 1.8%, slightly less than that reported by surgeons in the United States. Professor Bruce Keogh, president elect of the society and author of the report, however, acknowledged that American surgeons deal with a more complex case mix, with many more obese and diabetic patients than UK surgeons, which accounted for the difference in outcomes.

Doesn't seem like there's anything wrong w/ UK cardiac surgeons... seems more like a problem w/ the health quality of the patients.

[Scruit]

Keeping people alive should not be a profit-making industry. Simple.

No family should go bankrupt and lose their home because a child got sick. Simple.

Having the populace be in the best health possible through preventative healthcare is in the country's best interests. Simple.

Medicare/medicaid covers really poor people. Health insurance covers people who can afford it. 50 million people fall between those groups - earn too much to get medicare/medicaid, but can't afford health insurance.

[Scruit]

Did you hear about that Saudi prince who sought out the finest surgeon in all of Great Britain for his heart surgery? Me either.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/expathealth/8701829/Expat-guide-to-Saudi-Arabia-health-care.html

London pull

Naturally, the Saudi Arabian population – expat or indigenous – turns first to local health facilities although the United Arab Emirates is a popular destination for health care.

But for half a century, leading private hospitals in London have been treating patients from the Gulf. Sometimes the pull of London has to do with matters other than medical.

Dr Khemka said: “A lot of them are coming to the UK. We have the Cromwell hospital where 47 per cent of our customers are of Middle East origin. If you are diagnosed with cancer or one of the more serious long-term conditions, people often seek help away from Saudi Arabia.”

He maintains there is first-rate care for basic, primary, secondary and tertiary needs in Saudi Arabia. “But when it comes to super-specialist care or wanting to access centres of excellence, we find the customer often wants to go outside Saudi, initially to Western Europe, particularly London – and that’s as much to do with familiarity of the geography as medical need.”

[Disclaimer]

It's an off-topic non-political laugh riot in here... man oh man.

[Cheech]

Keeping people alive should not be a profit-making industry. Simple.

No family should go bankrupt and lose their home because a child got sick. Simple.

Having the populace be in the best health possible through preventative healthcare is in the country's best interests. Simple.

Medicare/medicaid covers really poor people. Health insurance covers people who can afford it. 50 million people fall between those groups - earn too much to get medicare/medicaid, but can't afford health insurance.

That's it and that's all.

[buildit]

Keeping people alive should not be a profit-making industry. Simple.

No family should go bankrupt and lose their home because a child got sick. Simple.

Having the populace be in the best health possible through preventative healthcare is in the country's best interests. Simple.

Medicare/medicaid covers really poor people. Health insurance covers people who can afford it. 50 million people fall between those groups - earn too much to get medicare/medicaid, but can't afford health insurance.

Alright there little buddy, if life was fair frogs wouldn't bump their asses when they jump, flipper wouldn't get stuck in a net he can esaily jump over and I wouldn't have to explain how wishy washy your above statement is in the REAL world.

I work all week and you've never worked but live in the same house I do, thats socialism, simple.

I spend 20 years and $300,000 getting a top grade education but am told I have to work for $20 an hour no mater what I do, that communism, simple.

You want to save every big eyed animal, never see anyone loose a sporting match no mater what the score, have every sharp corner wrapped in styrofoam and a national 15mph speed limit, that's a liberal, simple. Stop asking me to change the laws of natural science so you don't have to cry puppy tears at night over people who are inept.

"I am PMing Casper now to lock this thread or move it to politics" Simple.

[Scruit]

Alright there little buddy, if life was fair frogs wouldn't bump their asses when they jump, flipper wouldn't get stuck in a net he can esaily jump over and I wouldn't have to explain how wishy washy your above statement is in the REAL world.

I work all week and you've never worked but live in the same house I do, thats socialism, simple.

I spend 20 years and $300,000 getting a top grade education but am told I have to work for $20 an hour no mater what I do, that communism, simple.

You want to save every big eyed animal, never see anyone loose a sporting match no mater what the score, have every sharp corner wrapped in styrofoam and a national 15mph speed limit, that's a liberal, simple. Stop asking me to change the laws of natural science so you don't have to cry puppy tears at night over people who are inept.

"I am PMing Casper now to lock this thread or move it to politics" Simple.

Ever looked into the eyes of a 7 year old child who is dying of Leukemia? Ever had to explain to him why he can never go back to his home because his family lost it in a bankruptcy action due to medical bills when their insurance quit paying out?

No?

Then shut up, Buddy.

[Cheech]

Alright there little buddy, if life was fair frogs wouldn't bump their asses when they jump, flipper wouldn't get stuck in a net he can esaily jump over and I wouldn't have to explain how wishy washy your above statement is in the REAL world.

I work all week and you've never worked but live in the same house I do, thats socialism, simple.

I spend 20 years and $300,000 getting a top grade education but am told I have to work for $20 an hour no mater what I do, that communism, simple.

You want to save every big eyed animal, never see anyone loose a sporting match no mater what the score, have every sharp corner wrapped in styrofoam and a national 15mph speed limit, that's a liberal, simple. Stop asking me to change the laws of natural science so you don't have to cry puppy tears at night over people who are inept.

"I am PMing Casper now to lock this thread or move it to politics" Simple.

Those are some of the most ridiculous statements I've ever read on this forum. That level of stupid belongs on freerepublic.

[Disclaimer]

Bump for teh funniez. Childhood cancer and bankruptcy has me rolling.

Oh wait, no it doesn't.

[Scruit]

Bump for teh funniez. Childhood cancer and bankruptcy has me rolling.

Oh wait, no it doesn't.

It would be funny if I didn't witness it myself. If I hadn't spent hours helping his parents scrub their house top to bottom before the doctors would allow the immuno-compromised child to visit home one last time before goign to St.Judes... If I had watched his parents (two highly-paid and well-insured IT folks) lose their jobs, and eventually every penny they had when the insurance said; "$1m lifetime max payout. The last $4m is on you."

Yeah, I feel strongly about it.

[Cheech]

It would be funny if I didn't witness it myself. If I hadn't spent hours helping his parents scrub their house top to bottom before the doctors would allow the immuno-compromised child to visit home one last time before goign to St.Judes... If I had watched his parents (two highly-paid and well-insured IT folks) lose their jobs, and eventually every penny they had when the insurance said; "$1m lifetime max payout. The last $4m is on you."

Yeah, I feel strongly about it.

And the fact that there are literally thousands if not tens of thousands of these stories makes me even angrier when I hear someone say the people affected were "inept" or that "the market should decide".

Dude, I'm sorry you had to go through that.

[swingset]

This bleeding heart circle jerk is just wonderful. Let's all break our arms patting ourselves on the back for our compassion-fu, and anyone who doesn't think healthcare should be a subsidized, soulless government entity must be a monster.

Unlike some of you utopian children, I've lived in single-payer, socialized countries and saw what happens when you try to remove profit from the system. The system becomes the DMV, with doctors. Everyone who can afford to, pays more to get what we have, and everyone else gets in line for shit care. Or, if you'd like to be a complete dishonest tool, you can look at the tiny handful of industrial, wealthy, homogenous countries with socialized medicine and pretend it could ever work here with our vast socio-economic mix. It won't....it'll suck harder than what we've got.

The fact is, and you can hate this all you want, that greed makes for good medicine. It drives innovation, it funds research, it builds bigger and better facilities, and it makes even the shittiest care you can get vastly better than the free care given in some nations. It makes for better doctors, it makes for better surgeons, and that knowledge and experience trickles down and improves care the world over - even by spreading into the socialized countries by way of information and sharing of medical experience. Greed makes even "non-profit" medicine better.

Can this system be improved? Sure, it's totally fucked now, but not because of profit. Price controls fucks up any industry it sets out to fix.

Now, back to the mini-DNC suck fest this thread has become. If this thread was a kid, it would have leukemia and ask Scruit why it has to suffer with big sad eyes.

Because we all know that top flight healthcare and insurance is a right, and it's ok if someone else pays for it, and it's not ok if anyone profits from this expensive, risky and complicated treatment. That's totally realistic.

Edited September 6, 2012 by swingset

[twowheelsnake]

http://healthcarehacks.com/the-us-healthcare-system-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly

Yeah... We're not that great. Profit based is not a good thing. Why should they cure cancer for example? They won't, it makes too much money.

[twowheelsnake]

Socialized medicine worse than what we have? Think again...

http://healthcarehacks.com/socialized-medicine-in-britain-is-it-really-that-bad

Seems like the advertising against it from the multi-billion dollar healthcare industry is working on the teabaggers! Not me

[shittygsxr]

http://healthcarehacks.com/the-us-healthcare-system-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly

Yeah... We're not that great. Profit based is not a good thing. Why should they cure cancer for example? They won't, it makes too much money.

I would argue that Americans punish their bodies more than any of the other contrives cited in your article

[twowheelsnake]

I would argue that Americans punish their bodies more than any of the other contrives cited in your article

True. But god forbid we should legislate fast food restaurants to stop making 3000 calorie lunches. Oh wait...we are doing that

[YSR_Racer_99]

GOP healthcare in one sentence..

"Let poor people die."

Why do you say that? Thats not the platform stance at all. No person in America goes without healthcare, and the "poor" get all of theirs for free.

[YSR_Racer_99]

Keeping people alive should not be a profit-making industry. Simple.

No family should go bankrupt and lose their home because a child got sick. Simple.

Having the populace be in the best health possible through preventative healthcare is in the country's best interests. Simple.

Medicare/medicaid covers really poor people. Health insurance covers people who can afford it. 50 million people fall between those groups - earn too much to get medicare/medicaid, but can't afford health insurance.

Which industries should be allowed to make a profit? Utility companies? Car makers? Realtors?

Should ice cream be free, too? Where does "free" stop? "Free" healthcare? Free food? Free housing? Free cellphones? And if not free, then "at cost", so there is no profit?

There are a multitude of programs and services to help the terminally ill. Medicaid for the poor, medicare for the infirmed, etc.

You need to give up your toys and send your extra money each month to someone who needs it more than you do. THAT would be "fairrrrrrrr", right?

How much do you send your friend each month to help him pay off his $4m medical bill?

Edited September 6, 2012 by YSR_Racer_99

[YSR_Racer_99]

Ever looked into the eyes of a 7 year old child who is dying of Leukemia? Ever had to explain to him why he can never go back to his home because his family lost it in a bankruptcy action due to medical bills when their insurance quit paying out?

No?

Then shut up, Buddy.

Insurance has limits, so why are the insurance companies expected to exceed the limits which they contracted the payment for? If a cap is $1m, then its $1m. Period. WHY should they pay more, and how much of your money are you contributing to these people whom you encounter in the hardship positions?

[YSR_Racer_99]

Socialized medicine worse than what we have? Think again...

http://healthcarehacks.com/socialized-medicine-in-britain-is-it-really-that-bad

Seems like the advertising against it from the multi-billion dollar healthcare industry is working on the teabaggers! Not me

And of course the name-calling has to be a part of any liberal "argument".

I can't recall a single advert from a healthcare provider which addresses this in any way, shape, or form. (Prepare for someone to post something obscure from youtube...).

I do know what I've read from citizens in Europe and Canada about their abysmal healthcare, limits, and waiting lists. Firsthand accounts vs. media releases. Why do US hospitals in our northern border states have sooo many patients from Canada? IIRC, there's a Cleveland hospital which has a whole wing just for Canadians.

I pay almost $600/ month for a high-deductible policy for my family. Thank God that my family is healthy. Do I like it? Nope. Is it necessary? Absolutely. Would I rather have Obamacare in any way, shape, or form? Helllll Nooooooo.

Edited September 6, 2012 by YSR_Racer_99

[Disclaimer]

It's getting really funny in here now, with people believing their own unsubstantiated opinions as fact. I like the smell of my own musk too.

Good thing it's not political discussion, or some people would get labeled.

[buildit]

Ever looked into the eyes of a 7 year old child who is dying of Leukemia? Ever had to explain to him why he can never go back to his home because his family lost it in a bankruptcy action due to medical bills when their insurance quit paying out?

No?

Then shut up, Buddy.

Now there's a real manly card to pull. I'm sorry for your pain if that's your kid but It is not mine. So pull the "your a heartless prick" card. When the system fails due to abuse of the 'You owe me people", people wait weeks to get in to see a doctor, doctors give up their practices because there's no money in it and serious cases are not accepted by doctors that remain because they will look bad on their record you can feel better that you spread the pain around to EVERYONE!

[Fazerlady]

People do die because of insurance companies freedom, because Insurance companies won't insure you if you have pre-existing conditions, if they do, the deductible is $5000 a year and the premiums are insane, something nobody can afford.

In Germany insurance companies have to abide by guidelines and are NOT allowed to turn you away for a pre-existing condition.

I work in healthcare and it pains me to see sick people, poor and middle class or people that lost their job and their health insurance and they can't afford their $100 inhaler to enable them to breath, or they can't go see the doctor because they can't afford it.

So these sick people will eventually succumb to their chronic diseases and in NO country should this happen.

The USA is the one of the worst in healthcare in the western world amongst other things.

[Scruit]

Unlike some of you utopian children, I've lived in single-payer, socialized countries and saw what happens when you try to remove profit from the system. .

So have I. The NHS is not perfect either, but nobody goes bankrupt through medical bills when they get sick, nobody has any reason to delay preventative treatment until more aggressive intervention is required, and nobody worries that they'll have to choose between life-saving medical care or providing for their families. Nobody worries about in-network, out of network, reasonable-and-customary, annual limits, lifetime limits, deductibles, copays, in-network-coverage percentages versus out-of-network percentages, pre-approval or any of that bullshit.

For non-life-saving treatment going to the doctor is just the start of the crap. You can spend months chasing the paperwork to ensure you got paid correctly. I once spent 18 months chasing payments from an insurance company that made mistake after mistake after mistake, denying coverage at every turn until I finally proved they were under-paying me. It's bullshit start to finish.

I've been treated under NHS and under the US system, and I'll say the US system is faster for electives if you are willing to pay, but that life-saving and preventative health care is the same in both countries, with the UK sparing us the paperwork burden of the US system.

Neither system is perfect, but I'd rather have people wait-listed for electives than people (both insured and non-insured) bankrupted by major medical expenses.

Most recent example... I broke my nose last year. Did the same thing in England when I was a teenager.

US: Went to the ER. Got an x-ray and a MRI. Got my Dx and was discharged with referral to ENT. $2600. Out of pocket due to HDHP insurance. Went to ENT the next day, scheduled closed reduction surgery. Went to surgery, stayed 4 hours, discharged. Paid the ENT $2000. Paid the surgery center $3000. All out of pocket due to HDHP. End of the day I spent 6 months following up on paperwork to make sure that the amount applied to my deductible was appropriate and connecting bills from 4 different sources (ENT, ER, Surgery center, anesthesiologist) and reviewing the health plan to correct deduction limits and THEN found out the surgery center is either in-or-out of network depending on who did the surgery, so both ENT or SC bills may be applied to out-of-network deductible instead. I didn't choose the anesthesiologist and the SC didn't check my network so we didn;t know if HE was in or out, which would have knocked the SC out of network. Argued it out and got the deductible applied back to IN-network deductible. Final out-of-pocket wound up being a little over $8k, which took my months to pay back. And my wife and I both earn 6 figures and have typical employer-provided insurance.

England: Went to ER. Got x-ray and MRI. They treated me and scheduled a closed reduction surgery for 3 days out. Went to outpatient surgery center and had the op. Stayed in the center for about 4 hours then went home. That was the end of it.