HD sued over excess heat

[Tpoppa]

http://www.hdforums.com/industry-news/things-getting-hot-for-harley-davidsons-air-cooled-engines.php?=industrynews&utm_medium=Email&utm_source=ExactTarget&utm_campaign

Apparently, there is a class action suit against HD that claims the 96" and bigger motors generate enough heat to cause serious burns and ignite denim. Did you know that the new motors cut out the rear cylinder at idle to try to manage excess heat? I didn't.

At first, this seems laughable. These days, with people get paid for McDonald's coffee being too hot you never know. A judge has already ruled that the lawsuit can move forward.

http://www.hdforums.com/forum/general-harley-davidson-chat/671434-hd-sued-over-excess-heat.html

This thread on HD forums talks about the lawsuit. Some for it, some against. It then turns into a 50 page bitchfest about unresolved mechanical issues on newer HDs. Eventually it was locked by the moderator.

Edited September 14, 2011 by Tpoppa

[kawi kid]

Wait til peta sues them for leaking all that oil onto the ground under every HD motorcycle out there and killing mother earth. HD is like the BP of the motorcycle industry.

[redkow97]

typical product liability suit.

Honestly, if I were HD, I'd just issue a "recall" notice, and send all affected owners warning stickers saying that denim is not appropriate protective gear, and may be ignited by engine heat.

Unless there's some kind of regulation regarding how much heat an engine can produce, or the design is "grossly negligent," they're probably fine.

Like most class-actions, it will end up in a settlement where the average owner gets a sticker, or a recall, or some kind of token settlement, and the attorneys (who legitimately will put in a lot of hours on this) will walk away as the real winners.

But such is life. People who were ACTUALLY injured by the defect ought to be opting out of the class action suit and suing HD on their own.

[Scruit]

I alway giggle when I hear people quoting Liebeck v McDonalds as an example of a frivilous lawsuit.

Back in the early 90s McDonalds required it franchisees to serve the coffee was served significantly hotter than anyone could drink it because they assumed people would take the coffee to work and drink it and therefore want it to still be drinkably hot 10-15 minutes later. The car was parked and it was the passenger who was hurt. The coffee caused 3rd degree burns, she was hospitalized for 8 days and had to undergo skin grafts. Took 2 years of medical treatments for her to fully recover. McDonalds had received several hundred complaints of people being burned by the coffee and settled out-of-court with those folks. Despite ~700 people being burned, they still served the coffee dangerously hot and relied on paying off burn victims while not admitting liability, rather than change how the coffee was served.

[Pokey]

No cure for stupid lazy people in this country.

[Scruit]

No cure for large companies crapping on the little guy for a buck.

[Tpoppa]

Like most class-actions, it will end up in a settlement where the average owner gets a sticker, or a recall, or some kind of token settlement, and the attorneys (who legitimately will put in a lot of hours on this) will walk away as the real winners.

You are probably right. Blockbuster was worst example of this I can recall. The settlement was something like half a billion $$ in coupons. And the lawyer fees were a percentage of that figure, but they got paid is cash , not coupons.

Honestly, if I were HD, I'd just issue a "recall" notice, and send all affected owners warning stickers saying that denim is not appropriate protective gear, and may be ignited by engine heat.

What can they recall in this case? Maybe some kind of addon external heat shield?

HD has been incrementally increasing engine size 80, 88, 96, 103. At the same time the EPA has been mandating a leaner state of tune. Both of these result in more engine heat. Seems like they have reached some kind on threshold.

What really suprised me was the various 'unresolved' known issues that the HD owners are complaining about. Makes me feel a little better about the underperforming stator on my Buell.

[CBBaron]

I alway giggle when I hear people quoting Liebeck v McDonalds as an example of a frivilous lawsuit.

Back in the early 90s McDonalds required it franchisees to serve the coffee was served significantly hotter than anyone could drink it because they assumed people would take the coffee to work and drink it and therefore want it to still be drinkably hot 10-15 minutes later. The car was parked and it was the passenger who was hurt. The coffee caused 3rd degree burns, she was hospitalized for 8 days and had to undergo skin grafts. Took 2 years of medical treatments for her to fully recover. McDonalds had received several hundred complaints of people being burned by the coffee and settled out-of-court with those folks. Despite ~700 people being burned, they still served the coffee dangerously hot and relied on paying off burn victims while not admitting liability, rather than change how the coffee was served.

I still don't get where McDonalds was wrong on this. According to everything I have seen on recommendations for brewing coffee the water should be over 200F. Since the coffee will boil about 212F it could not have been much hotter than the recommended brewing temperature. Not saying the plaintiff was not injured but it still seems to me that one should expect their coffee to be hot.

Seems to me the HD case is not so clear cut. You do expect a large motor to be hot but one would expect the hottest parts to have some kind of guard that prevents casual contact. Wearing shorts and getting burned is just stupid on the riders part, but catching denim on fire for a rider in a reasonable riding position is excessive.

Craig

[Pokey]

No cure for large companies crapping on the little guy for a buck.

And that too.

[RymerC]

This just in: Air-cooled motors will burn you!

How much hotter than any other air-cooled motor do the HDs run? What, they didn't have enough room for adequate cooling fins so they just let it run hot?

[Scruit]

I still don't get where McDonalds was wrong on this. According to everything I have seen on recommendations for brewing coffee the water should be over 200F. Since the coffee will boil about 212F it could not have been much hotter than the recommended brewing temperature. Not saying the plaintiff was not injured but it still seems to me that one should expect their coffee to be hot.

Craig

The temperature that coffee is brewed at is one thing - the temperature it is served at is different. I make tea with boiling water - I don't drink it while it's boiling.

To me the most telling thing is the ~700 people burned up to that point. That should be your clue that something needs to change if people are getting burned that much.

What else could they have done? I dunno. Different cups? A lid that allows you to add creamer and sugar without taking the lid off? A stern warning in the drive-through that you shouldn't hold the coffee between your legs? Ask the driver if they want to drink it now or later, and serve at a temp that is appropriate?

Meh, don't want to get off-topic. Just wanted to point out that people beileve the McD's lawsuit to be a poster child for frivolous lawsuits yet is remains a controversial and divided case. If it was frivilous then everyone would agree it was wrong, no?

[Tpoppa]

The temperature that coffee is brewed at is one thing - the temperature it is served at is different. I make tea with boiling water - I don't drink it while it's boiling.

To me the most telling thing is the ~700 people burned up to that point. That should be your clue that something needs to change if people are getting burned that much.

What else could they have done? I dunno. Different cups? A lid that allows you to add creamer and sugar without taking the lid off? A stern warning in the drive-through that you shouldn't hold the coffee between your legs? Ask the driver if they want to drink it now or later, and serve at a temp that is appropriate?

Meh, don't want to get off-topic. Just wanted to point out that people beileve the McD's lawsuit to be a poster child for frivolous lawsuits yet is remains a controversial and divided case. If it was frivilous then everyone would agree it was wrong, no?

I agree that the woman was legitimately injured. I've had 3rd degree burns before, it's not the end of the world. For the $2.8 million she was awarded, later reduced to $640,000 (yes, I had to look it up) I would gladly let Ronald McDonald himself pour a pot of hot coffee on me

[conn-e-rot]

They should just issue a recall have the customer bring the bike in and install some big ugly heat shield that no one will want with one way screws so they can not easily remove it.

[redkow97]

if it was frivilous, then it would have been dismissed.

The same will happen with this HD suit. Either it has merit, or it doesn't.

if there is a legitimate legal question for a jury to decide, it will be allowed to go forward. Seems it's already beyond that step. But I think it's going to be hard for them to certify a class here.

there is no official minimum number, but if you have less than 100 people, you're not going to get a class certified. That means they need to find 100 people who have had their jeans catch on fire, or have been burned by the excessive engine heat.

HD will come back with figures regarding burn rates on competitors motorcycles, etc.

frankly, i don't know what establishes "excessive" heat in an internal COMBUSTION engine. Heat is a known byproduct. As far as I can tell, the bike's aren't really malfunctioning.

Like Tpoppa pointed out, there's nothing to "fix" here... If i'd purchased a car that ran really hot, could I sue over that too?

[redkow97]

They should just issue a recall have the customer bring the bike in and install some big ugly heat shield that no one will want with one way screws so they can not easily remove it.

that's why my initial suggestion was a warnign sticker.

Class actions get sticky for attorneys though. they're obligated to do what's in the best interest of their clients (the class), but they also want to get paid.

whoever the attorneys are are definitely VERY qualified, or the court would never have allowed them to represent the class. It's a big pay-day, but it's also a lot of responsibility when you're negotiating and arguing on behalf of hundreds of plaintiffs, and technically, on behalf of society at-large.

the idea is that it motivates companies to not make defective products.

[Josh1234]

Seems to me the HD case is not so clear cut. You do expect a large motor to be hot but one would expect the hottest parts to have some kind of guard that prevents casual contact. Wearing shorts and getting burned is just stupid on the riders part, but catching denim on fire for a rider in a reasonable riding position is excessive.

Craig

Emphasis added.

That statement means it's not a frivolous lawsuit, to me.

[Tpoppa]

It's a big pay-day, but it's also a lot of responsibility when you're negotiating and arguing on behalf of hundreds of plaintiffs, and technically, on behalf of society at-large.

I think the big pay day is the motivating factor for the legal team. Not helping society. See Blockbuster. I'm sure there are exceptions.

[redkow97]

but how often is that happening? Can it be replicated? How long is "reasonable" for a rider to sit on an idling bike while it's not moving?

how hot is "reasonable?"

These are all very subjective questions, and the reason it will be allowed to go in front of a jury.

If the bikes are igniting denim while riders are waiting at stop lights, then yes, that's a design flaw.

But if they're only igniting after 20 minutes of burnouts, and the biker has spilled 80 proof booze on his pants, that's a different story.

the number and frequency of incidents should tell SOME of the story.

[Tpoppa]

This is what I read: External motor temps can exceed 240 degrees (hotter than coffee...wink, wink). Denim burns at 215 degrees.

This may or may not be accurate.

[LINK]

It has merit, sitting at the intersection of 23 and Polaris, 2007 Night Train, waiting to turn onto Polaris, it felt as though someone was holding a torch on my thighs, and this was after it was tuned, it ran hotter before I tuned it.

I am not sure about catching denim on fire, but IDK, that Night Train got really hot sometimes, it would leave marks on me at times.

I installed a Thunder-Max AT, exhaust, and CAI almost from new, I was aware of the heat issue then, and this lowered the operating temperatures a bit, but still hot, in stock form they run even hotter.

[Simplysix]

Wait til peta sues them for leaking all that oil onto the ground under every HD motorcycle out there and killing mother earth. HD is like the BP of the motorcycle industry.

I know all bikes can leak oil, but that's hilarious

[RymerC]

but how often is that happening? Can it be replicated? How long is "reasonable" for a rider to sit on an idling bike while it's not moving?

how hot is "reasonable?"

These are all very subjective questions, and the reason it will be allowed to go in front of a jury.

If the bikes are igniting denim while riders are waiting at stop lights, then yes, that's a design flaw.

But if they're only igniting after 20 minutes of burnouts, and the biker has spilled 80 proof booze on his pants, that's a different story.

the number and frequency of incidents should tell SOME of the story.

Well I spend 10 minutes sitting (minimum) each way commuting to work. Sometimes it's up to an hour. I usually turn my bike off if I can crawl with traffic, but sometimes if you're just creeping, it's better to leave it running. Especially those days where it's 100+ degrees on the asphalt, and you're sitting forever... I've never been hot enough on an aircooled bike where anything caught fire.

If my pants were sitting on the exhaust during a long burnout, then yes absolutely something could ignite. But who is that incredibly retarded? You're asking for it and I'd call that "frivolous."

[Tpoppa]

Well I spend 10 minutes sitting (minimum) each way commuting to work. Sometimes it's up to an hour. I usually turn my bike off if I can crawl with traffic, but sometimes if you're just creeping, it's better to leave it running. Especially those days where it's 100+ degrees on the asphalt, and you're sitting forever... I've never been hot enough on an aircooled bike where anything caught fire.

On what bike? This complaint seems to be specific to the 96" and 103" HDs.

[redkow97]

If my pants were sitting on the exhaust during a long burnout, then yes absolutely something could ignite. But who is that incredibly retarded? You're asking for it and I'd call that "frivolous."

Have you been to any kind of bike rally? (I won't even bash HD owners in particular there. The AMA races at Mid-Ohio have plenty of sportbike riders holding their bikes at redline for unhealthy periods of time)

If there was no question of fact for a jury to answer, then the suit would not have been allowed to go forward. It may still be dismissed.

But without knowing the circumstances under which denim has caught fire, you can only say what might be frivolous.

[Reimbrandt]

just a thought... dont yell at me but just a thought. arent things like this tested and retested my manufactures for safe operation? Not that they cant fk things up.... I agree, if you wear shorts or such and get burned its your own dumb fault. just like with the coffee..... I get hot food and burn my mouth i dont expect the place to hand me a million dollars. Thats my rub with these idiot lawsuits....... she got burned, shes the dip that spilled it, but someone has to hand her a fkn fortune because of it. this is why we have stickers on step ladders saying not to put it in a swimming pool to work on power lines. easy fix for dumb shit lawsuits..... loser pays. that will stop the most of this cause there are some real assinine waste of money out there that only the lawyers make the money on and raise our insurance and other rates through the damn roof