fireman_343 Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) ... Edited February 19, 2011 by fireman_343 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fireman_343 Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 I get it fireman, I'm on your side of this debate (though I'm just stoking the fire for the most part). But, honestly, the part I don't get is WHY are the chiefs so eager to DENY and screw people over? I know they do it and that's why you have a union, but I never figured out how it's in their best interest to do that other than to be a bunch of assholes -- and powertrippin' has never been a good reason for anything.The chiefs like the power.. if they have the power to do so they will! I'm not saying that all chiefs and capt are like that.. but I know of a few here at my work that will screw over people just because they can! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casper Posted February 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 THE UNION IS GOING AWAY! Thats what this is all about! HAHA I'm really lost then. The intro to the bill summary says:The Public Employee Collective Bargaining Law State employees and employees of state institutions of higher education · Abolishes the collective bargaining rights of employees of the state, of any agency, authority, commission, or board of the state, and of any state institution of higher education. · Prohibits the state, agencies, authorities, commissions, and boards of the state, and a state institution of higher education from collectively bargaining with its employees. · Abolishes the Office of Collective Bargaining. Police and fire department supervisors · Removes a limitation on the definition of "supervisor" with respect to members of police and fire departments, potentially making more people supervisors and ineligible to collectively bargain.So for you, a firefighter and non supervisor, not only will you still have the union to back you up, but you'll still have collective bargaining. Where does it say unions are going away? Or are the unions going to voluntarily leave if this bill passes?I just searched through, and here's the only mention of union:©(1) The department shall appoint an independent hearing officer to conduct any hearing conducted pursuant to division (B)(2) of this section, except that, if the hearing is regarding an employee of the department who is represented by a union, the department and a representative of the union shall jointly select the hearing officer. This part is being removed from the current:, except that, if the hearing is regarding an employee of the department who is represented by a union, the department and a representative of the union shall jointly select the hearing officer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fireman_343 Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) Really??? HAHA Okay, little english lesson here! LOLABOLISH: to end the observance or effect of, DESTROY! To do away with (laws, regulations, customs, etc.); put an end to.Abolishes the Office of Collective BargainingThey are going to do away with the collective bargaining! Collective bargaining is a process of voluntary negotiations between employers and trade unions aimed at reaching agreements which regulate working conditions. Collective agreements usually set out wage scales, working hours, training, health and safety, overtime, grievance mechanisms and rights to participate in workplace or company affairs.The union may negotiate with a single employer (who is typically representing a company's shareholders) or may negotiate with a federation of businesses, depending on the country, to reach an industry wide agreement. A collective agreement functions as a labor contract between an employer and one or more unions. Collective bargaining consists of the process of negotiation between representatives of a union and employers (generally represented by management, in some countries[which?] by an employers' organization) in respect of the terms and conditions of employment of employees, such as wages, hours of work, working conditions and grievance-procedures, and about the rights and responsibilities of trade unions. The parties often refer to the result of the negotiation as a collective bargaining agreement (CBA) or as a collective employment agreement (CEA).Talk to your brother about it! What FD does it work for? I'm sure he can fill ya in on some insight on the SB5 and how it will affect him! Edited February 19, 2011 by fireman_343 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casper Posted February 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Really??? HAHA Okay, little english lesson here! ABOLISH: to end the observance or effect of, DESTROY! To do away with (laws, regulations, customs, etc.); put an end to.Abolishes the Office of Collective BargainingThey are going to do away with the union (collective bargaining)! Collective bargaining is a process of voluntary negotiations between employers and trade unions aimed at reaching agreements which regulate working conditions. Collective agreements usually set out wage scales, working hours, training, health and safety, overtime, grievance mechanisms and rights to participate in workplace or company affairs.The union may negotiate with a single employer (who is typically representing a company's shareholders) or may negotiate with a federation of businesses, depending on the country, to reach an industry wide agreement. A collective agreement functions as a labor contract between an employer and one or more unions. Collective bargaining consists of the process of negotiation between representatives of a union and employers (generally represented by management, in some countries[which?] by an employers' organization) in respect of the terms and conditions of employment of employees, such as wages, hours of work, working conditions and grievance-procedures, and about the rights and responsibilities of trade unions. The parties often refer to the result of the negotiation as a collective bargaining agreement (CBA) or as a collective employment agreement (CEA).So, if this applies to police and firefighters, then why does it say :Police and fire department supervisors · Removes a limitation on the definition of "supervisor" with respect to members of police and fire departments, potentially making more people supervisors and ineligible to collectively bargain.If they're abolishing collective bargaining for all, why say any leo/firefighter who will be classified as a supervisor under the new bill will be excluded from collective bargaining. Doesn't make much since if ALL collective bargaining is being abolished. Police and fire department supervisors The bill potentially makes more people ineligible for collectively bargaining. Under continuing law, public employees have the right to collectively bargain. A public employee generally is any person holding a position by appointment or employment in the service of a public employer, but numerous exceptions exist. One exception is that "public employee" does not include supervisors. Supervisors generally are individuals who have authority to take certain actions regarding the terms and conditions of employment of other public employees, if the exercise of that authority is not of a merely routine or clerical nature but requires independent judgment. With regard to members of a police or fire department, current law specifies that no person can be deemed a supervisor except the chief of the department or those individuals who, in the absence of the chief, are authorized to exercise the authority and perform the duties of the chief of the department. The bill removes that limitation, so more people may be deemed supervisors under the law, with no collective bargaining rights.Why is that even in the new bill if all collective bargaining is being abolished? I think we need a lawyer to read this shit and give us the lowdown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fireman_343 Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Here is some more info on Collective Bargaining... http://clear.uhwo.hawaii.edu/CB-FAQ.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disclaimer Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 ©(1) The department shall appoint an independent hearing officer to conduct any hearing conducted pursuant to division (B)(2) of this section, except that, if the hearing is regarding an employee of the department who is represented by a union, the department and a representative of the union shall jointly select the hearing officer. That's funny that the department appoints it. I'm sure there's no bias there. Kinda of like the workers comp doctor they sent my mother to after she was rear-ended, for the second time, in her postal vehicle that said there was nothing wrong with her neck.The three other independent doctors she went to had a differing opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fireman_343 Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) So, if this applies to police and firefighters, then why does it say :If they're abolishing collective bargaining for all, why say any leo/firefighter who will be classified as a supervisor under the new bill will be excluded from collective bargaining. Doesn't make much since if ALL collective bargaining is being abolished. Why is that even in the new bill if all collective bargaining is being abolished? I think we need a lawyer to read this shit and give us the lowdown.Just like it reads... they put in a fancy title like "supervisor" and say that we are EXCLUDED from collective bargaining? A Union and Collective Bargaining go hand and hand.. What is classified as "supervisor" under the new bill?? A firefighter, a Lt., a Capt, a Chief?? I can be a supervisor as a firefighter to a lower ranking firefighter! Edited February 19, 2011 by fireman_343 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casper Posted February 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Just like it reads... they put in a fancy title like "supervisor" and say that we are EXCLUDED from collective bargaining.. like starting or having a UNION! The two go hand and hand..Right, but why specify that if all public employees including police and firefighters are not allowed to collectively bargain? Essentially, it's saying that if you're not a supervisor, you CAN have a union and you CAN collectively bargain. That's how I read it anyways. Supervisor isn't a fancy title. If you're a supervisor (which it states as someone who has direct reports and has influence over their pay/schedules, which is a supervisor) then you're a supervisor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fireman_343 Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Read my edit above.. what is classified as Supervisor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casper Posted February 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 For the record, I swear to God, Allah, whoever else you want, if I ever get elected into any political position where I introduce/write/etc any bills, I will write the fucker in plain English, easily read by everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casper Posted February 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Read my edit above.. what is classified as Supervisor?From my post:Supervisor isn't a fancy title. If you're a supervisor (which it states as someone who has direct reports and has influence over their pay/schedules, which is a supervisor) then you're a supervisor.But this is mute. Why is that even in there if unions are being abolished? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disclaimer Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 I'd pair the firefighters up and have them supervise each other.Or have a rotating supervisor position.Union busted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fireman_343 Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 I just talked to one of the guys at work and he said that since we are STATE employees, this effects us more then local city firefighters! I guess, they will not look at our title as Firefighter, but as just a state employee! Also, our union will still be here..., but we would have no back bone to go off of, and no arbitrator to help with problems! All the other stuff I said, is true about our schedule and time off, etc.. I'm screwed if it passes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Butters Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 That's funny that the department appoints it. I'm sure there's no bias there. Kinda of like the workers comp doctor they sent my mother to after she was rear-ended, for the second time, in her postal vehicle that said there was nothing wrong with her neck.The three other independent doctors she went to had a differing opinion.workers comp doctors are the spawn of satan....slimy, immoral, fucktards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJC1000rr Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) I just talked to one of the guys at work and he said that since we are STATE employees, this effects us more then local city firefighters! I guess, they will not look at our title as Firefighter, but as just a state employee! Also, our union will still be here..., but we would have no back bone to go off of, and no arbitrator to help with problems! All the other stuff I said, is true about our schedule and time off, etc.. I'm screwed if it passes!I'm in this boat, but even more so. As a PD/University/State employee. Not only will they remove CB from the table, but OSU has also exempted itself from the civil service process completely (as per ORC since it was never worded in the original making to include ULEO). There will be no more contracts and management will rule by what it sees fit. Call it "divine right" and can get away with it without question almost. All they would have to say is "financial burden" can cut our pay by as much as they see fit and gift us with whatever else. (Full medical premiums, reduction in time off and forced to work as much as they way) Yes, they will do the last one as they attempted to mandate us for 80+ events in our last contact. (320-640hrs/year more outside of our regular 40 hour weeks.)We have a ULP (unfair labor practice) already filed in court against the university on several issues due to this. I'm already looking for a different job and are considering moving to another state depending on how this goes. I've worked at two different places within my career. In both places, the management did what it wanted and took all they could and rarely gave anything out regardless of how well you did or what you offered. If management could work fairly with the employee's, there wouldn't be very few issues. But when you have a management that does what they want, how they want and when you simply ask why…and they won’t tell you why or gives you “because” that causes problems. (IE) Its hard to say you don't have any money when you go and buy 4 brand new vehicles for civilians to drive daily along with new hardwood furniture.Will unions die as a result of this, not completely per say. But there won't be a use for them as there’s no reason to stand up for the working membership body if the dictator/boss says this is what I'm going to do, deal with it. Fairness goes out the window which will result in a decreased performance by those affected as no one will care anymore. This will then translated into lowered/insufficient service provided to the public. People will leave current positions and the requirements to fill the now vacant positions will have to be lowered to find bodies. And with decreased requirement, you will receive decreased professionalism, work ethic, honestly and so on. Edited February 18, 2011 by SJC1000rr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drew95gt Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Average Columbus city teacher makes north of $50k, works 7 hours per day for 180 days per year..... $39.68 per hour. Wife is a teacher, mom was a teacher. Not saying "overpaid", but let's lose the "underpaid" myth. It's a pretty good gig.Columbus makes pretty good $$$ compared to most then. I grew up in WV with mom being an elementary ed teacher in WV and dad in adult vocational across the river in OH. Dad did ok, 60k as a director for a rural school, but if I remember correctly mom was around 40k when she retired. I would love to have summers and weekends off like teachers, that to me would make the job appealing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disclaimer Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 If, through some miracle, they actually do break the union and this passes...I can't wait to see the kind of 'talent' the prevailing wages and benefits will attract to these positions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fusion Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Walker gins up ‘crisis’ to reward cronies"In its Jan. 31 memo to legislators on the condition of the state’s budget, the Fiscal Bureau determined that the state will end the year with a balance of $121.4 million.To the extent that there is an imbalance -- Walker claims there is a $137 million deficit -- it is not because of a drop in revenues or increases in the cost of state employee contracts, benefits or pensions. It is because Walker and his allies pushed through $140 million in new spending for special-interest groups in January. If the Legislature were simply to rescind Walker’s new spending schemes -- or delay their implementation until they are offset by fresh revenues -- the “crisis” would not exist." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disclaimer Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Addition to above: Republican Governor Deliberately Spent Wisconsin Surplus To Pick Fight With Unions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyco1 Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 If, through some miracle, they actually do break the union and this passes...I can't wait to see the kind of 'talent' the prevailing wages and benefits will attract to these positions.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rJAw-fuYHk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buildit Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 I wonder how much this fight is costing the "guberment" both for the workers and legislative branches? As for the politicians who fled Wisconsin in order to avoid voting, is this an act of sabotage and bring about legal actions? Isn't this like police seeing a crime and turning a blind eye? Total dereliction of duty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C-bus Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 I find it interesting that the media and labor groups immediately turn the attention towards police, fire, and teachers. In my opinion, fwiw, add ODOT and the IRS to that list and you have the few groups that are actually necessary for a free society to exist. If, at the end of the day, they remained whole, I could live with it. Many on this site advocate smaller government and less spending. Let's not forget that every penny of "spending" goes to someone else as revenue. To cut spending, someone loses something that they have. Any volunteers? Save the cops!...... government cheese ftw! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevysoldier Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Also, our union will still be here..., but we would have no back bone to go off of, and no arbitrator to help with problems! All the other stuff I said, is true about our schedule and time off, etc.. I'm screwed if it passes!I've been reading through this but haven't commented because I'm not really familiar with this bill. First you stated that the unions would be abolished, numerous time. You even went through an English lesson so everyone would know. Now you say they won't be abolished. It sounds like to me you are not familiar with this bill and are only going off of what other people have told you. I was really wanting to side with you on this until you flipped about the unions. Now I am lead to believe you don't know how this will really change things.I'm not trying to insult you or be a jerk. I have great respect for our firefighters. You are part of a different breed to run into a fire when everyone else is running out. Bills anymore are written is some language that no one seems to understand then everyone "thinks" they know what's going basing it only on hearsay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quessimasquid Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Too much. I can't take it. All this garbage about lazy union workers. Blah blah. Fact is collective.bargaining has worked for decades . U.a.w... really ? Good comparison . Not. Binding arbitration ? Less than 2% of contracts go to binding arbitration. And the cost is either split or the loser pays. It's state law the arbitrator is from Ohio. And I don't know too many that would award labor at the cost.of bankrupting a municipality . And keep there job. Pensions.... there negotiated...... hello. Less pay in exchange for retirement. Fact is the country is broke.. war.doesn't work stimulating the economy anymore. I find it unbelievable that middle class working people would fi against another middle class working person ... all in the name I'd capitalism and chance for riches. There will soon be less reason to be a state worker . Teacher . Or public/safety worker in Ohio. More jobs and workers leaving . Good plan . Workers should just shut the whole thing down. And ya . I'm talking about strikes. Any group of workers have the right to strike. Unless they agreed not to by agreeing to a contract... hello. There's no contract? According to the governor. Fire them. Nice. Maybe a union of one is what this country is coming to. Get yours . Suck butt. Back stab. Make deals. Get yours. Screw Ur follow employee. May the best man win. I'm gonna try to go look in the classifieds . I'm sure there will be some stuff cheap ..... what an opportunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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