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Tonik

Let them die.

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1 hour ago, zx3vfr said:

Well Honda hasn’t been exactly known as innovative since probably the early 90s. 

Honda is the king of 5 year old motorcycles aging on the show room floor.  

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17 minutes ago, Tpoppa said:

Honda is the king of 5 year old motorcycles aging on the show room floor.  

That either they or their dealers never budge on price. 
 

it’s sad really. 

I 100% get that the American motorcycle market is shit compared to the rest of the world but just stop already.  Sell the Gold Wing, Africa Twin, CRF line, grom  and a couple SxS’s 

no CBRs, no cruisers don’t even bother with middle weight naked sport bikes. So many better options.  
 

I test road my dads crf250l and that crap is more softly sprung than my Vulcan. My KLX might be a 15+ year old bike that hasnt changed other than FI but at least I don’t feel like I’m going to flip over the front handle bars from fork dive when I touch the brake. 

Edited by zx3vfr

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Don’t know if it’s true or not but my feeling was Honda was too proud and kept making motorcycles that it thought the world needed. They wanted to determine what was good for the rider. Made good stuff but never clicked and priced it to a premium point. The value of which you will only understand once you own it and ride it, never on paper  Eg vfr1200 And thus it suffered 

but recently I have a feeling Honda changed and started making bike what the people wanted, changed design language to fit current trend as well. Eg Cbr naked bike comparison from past generation to current. Also the whole bikes they started building based on current trend I assume. Prime eg new gold wing, put it right where it will eat away business from low weight Sport tourers as well as heavy weight long distance mile munchers. CRF 450 what the dual sport world was asking for long time. New Cbr 1000 with all the fancy gadgets and stuff, probably be the liter bike of the year. Albeit everything is still priced premium and people buy it as left over mostly :) 

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1 hour ago, zx3vfr said:

Well Honda hasn’t been exactly known as innovative since probably the early 90s. 

Where did I say they were being innovative?

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3 minutes ago, Tonik said:

Where did I say they were being innovative?

You didn’t outright say it. 

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33 minutes ago, zx3vfr said:

What has Suzuki done that’s been innovative in the past 15 years? 

Idk about innovative but they put out a real nice 1000 a year or two ago and people are eating them up.

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2 minutes ago, TimTheAzn said:

Idk about innovative but they put out a real nice 1000 a year or two ago and people are eating them up.

L7 yeet yeet 

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2 minutes ago, zx3vfr said:

That either they or their dealers never budge on price. 
 

it’s sad really. 

I 100% get that the American motorcycle market is shit compared to the rest of the world but just stop already.  Sell the Gold Wing, Africa Twin, CRF line, grom  and a couple SxS’s 

no CBRs, no cruisers don’t even bother with middle weight naked sport bikes. So many better options.  

New, 2014 CTX700s and CTX1300s were still in showrooms last year.  The NC700x, NT700V, VFR1200, CB1100, CB1000R were all overpriced swings and misses.  CBRs always rank near the bottom in HP.  All those bikes are fine to ride, but compared to compared to the competition, they are more expensive and lack features that buyers want. 

The new GW is their best, most innovative offering in years, but 2018s are still sitting in showrooms.

 

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7 minutes ago, Tpoppa said:

New, 2014 CTX700s and CTX1300s were still in showrooms last year.  The NC700x, NT700V, VFR1200, CB1100, CB1000R were all overpriced swings and misses.  CBRs always rank near the bottom in HP.  All those bikes are fine to ride, but compared to compared to the competition, they are more expensive and lack features that buyers want. 

The new GW is their best, most innovative offering in years, but 2018s are still sitting in showrooms.

 

I always use this story to help people comprehend because you are spot on. 
 

I worked at a Dodge and BMW dealer through the Great Recession. 
 

Dodge came in and yanked their franchise. 
The owner never could figure out why and told everyone it was because he didn’t want to convert to CDJR branding. 
 

We all know the real reason. What average middle class soccer mom is going to drive 45k Durango when there’s an X5 right next to it for just a little bit more, or even less due to BMWs fantastic lease programs. 

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26 minutes ago, TimTheAzn said:

Idk about innovative but they put out a real nice 1000 a year or two ago and people are eating them up.

Look at the model line ups of the big 4 Japanese manufacturers.

Kawasaki and Yamaha have by far the most desirable models in the categories where most bikes sell.  FZ09, FZ07, Tracer, Ninja 650, Z900, Ninja 1000 all sell.

Beginner sportbikes...Suzuki built the terrible selling GSX250R , which is good competition for the 1988 Ninja 250.

Honda has the CBR500R (CBR300R is not even worth mentioning).  Compare the CBR500R to the Ninja 400...The Ninja is lighter, faster, better handling, better suspended, more engaging to ride, fun on a track, and way less expensive.   The Honda is....."crickets"      

Edited by Tpoppa

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Interesting. The second largest seller of motorcycles in the US who has had a 29 percent sales growth over the last ten years doesn't know what they are doing.

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I think most heavy cruisers will fade away in the next decade. Why buy one when the GW is so good? The Voyager is a decade old and is $20k. I would gladly spend another $2-5k to step into something modern if I were in the market for a new bike. There is no chance I am spending GoldWing money on a 900 lb bagger. 

I am NOT in the market for a new machine, but I am supposed to be HD's demographic (I am 43 and make enough to afford one). A giant HD/Kaw/whatevs isn't even a blip on my radar. 

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4 minutes ago, Tonik said:

Interesting. The second largest seller of motorcycles in the US who has had a 29 percent sales growth over the last ten years doesn't know what they are doing.

Who is number one?

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The honda vtr250 sells amazingly overseas.

All ICE bikes will be banned soon and Air-cooling will go extinct due to global warming.

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1 minute ago, zx3vfr said:

Who is number one?

In the US, still Harley. In the world, Honda.

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Just now, Tonik said:

In the US, still Harley. In the world, Honda.

I already know. Just wanted you to say it. 

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Just now, zx3vfr said:

I already know. Just wanted you to say it. 

Whose motorcycle sales are growing really well in a crap market?

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1 minute ago, Tonik said:

Whose motorcycle sales are growing really well in a crap market?

BMW, Triumph, & KTM

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25 minutes ago, Tonik said:

Interesting. The second largest seller of motorcycles in the US who has had a 29 percent sales growth over the last ten years doesn't know what they are doing.

They could always be pulling a Wells Fargo. 🤣🤣🤣

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14 minutes ago, Tpoppa said:

BMW, Triumph, & KTM

When you ain't selling much, there is no where to go but up. Honda sells more bikes in a month than the three of them put together sell in a year.

 

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Adventure bikes are by far the most virile segment right now.  Give HD credit for making an effort with the PA, but they are late to the game and their is already strong, well-established competition.  Harley could really use a win here.  Which is most likely scenario:

A)  Sales flop.  HD is too far out of their comfort zone.  It will be too heavy, will lack features and capability & will be at the bottom of every comparison.

B)  Mediocre sales.  It will never make it to showrooms in meaningful numbers.  HD dealers won't know how to talk to adventure buyers (ala Buell).  Will be a niche bike among the HD faithful. 

C) Sales success.  HD will knock this out of the park and and surprise the GS, KTM, Tiger, AT, VStrom, & Tenere.  It will be a viable contender and attract riders from other manufacturers. 

 

2020-Harley-Davidson-Pan-America.jpg

Edited by Tpoppa

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1 minute ago, Tonik said:

When you ain't selling much, there is no where to go but up. Honda sells more bikes in a month than the three of them put together sell in a year.

 

So does HD and they are circling the drain.

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2 minutes ago, Tonik said:

When you ain't selling much, there is no where to go but up. Honda sells more bikes in a month than the three of them put together sell in a year.

 

Because they don’t have to sell that many. To keep up with their business model. 
 

I’m not arguing Honda doesn’t sell bikes, at least in the rest of the world but I have a hard time believing they sell that many units of street bikes. Now throw in SxSs and the CRF line it becomes more believable. 

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1 hour ago, Tpoppa said:

So does HD and they are circling the drain.

One of their best sellers, both by units sold, and profitablity is something akin to an oversized jazzy or hoveround.

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