Braking while leaned over.

[Jester_]

37 minutes ago, what said:

I avoid using my front brake for line adjustments mid corner because the danger of tucking the front is highest near the apex and generally that's when I'm having to adjust/tighten my line... not the best moment to be adding additional stress to the front tire - so I stick with rear brake or less maintenance throttle. Obviously if I'm wanting to swing wider on corner exit I get on the throttle earlier to adjust my line. 

"Use the brake until you are happy with your speed and direction"

If you dont get off the brake until you are ready to add throttle you can modulate the brake lever to adjust your speed in a smooth manner "much like approaching a stop sign". Treat the slowest point of a corner as a stop sign, you dont slam on the brakes then release the brakes and coast to a stop at a stop sign, you slowly release brake pressure to come to a smooth stop while adjusting your speed accordingly. So you just treat the slowest part of the corner like a stop sign but instead of a target speed of 0 its 35 or 50 or whatever. This will also improve your geometry and provide a more consistent load on the front tire.

 

But most of that is turning into track talk so after that I'm out lol. 

[Jester_]

14 minutes ago, Pauly said:

I imagine the intricacies of the linked system play the larger role. Which lever does what to which caliper and how much, etc. 

Good point, I'm not sure if my R1 would give any front brake if I used any rear brake input. I get my rear abs to kick on alot without feeling anything in the front so atleast those are seperate systems, I'm not sure if a goldwing would take the same approach to a braking system. 

Front or rear input if applied correctly should tighten a radius regardless. 

[blue03636]

46 minutes ago, TimTheAzn said:

A couple times I felt like I was about to smack my head into the apex board. 

I hit that damn thing with my shoulder.

[TimTheAzn]

4 minutes ago, blue03636 said:

I hit that damn thing with my shoulder.

Is that why later in the day the top left of that particular marker had a chunk missing? I thought I remember coming through there and it looking like it got hit.

Edited August 5, 2019 by TimTheAzn

[what]

15 minutes ago, Jester_ said:

"Use the brake until you are happy with your speed and direction"

If you dont get off the brake until you are ready to add throttle you can modulate the brake lever to adjust your speed in a smooth manner "much like approaching a stop sign". Treat the slowest point of a corner as a stop sign, you dont slam on the brakes then release the brakes and coast to a stop at a stop sign, you slowly release brake pressure to come to a smooth stop while adjusting your speed accordingly. So you just treat the slowest part of the corner like a stop sign but instead of a target speed of 0 its 35 or 50 or whatever. This will also improve your geometry and provide a more consistent load on the front tire.

 

But most of that is turning into track talk so after that I'm out lol. 

If I'm having to adjust my line it's usually because I'm trying to pass or some dipwad I'm 6" away from decided he's going to intrude in my path of travel or has crashed and I now need to avoid their flailing body. Smooth, minute line adjustments leading to apex are done by modulating my trail braking, or, if I'm not actively on the brakes going into a corner, using throttle and body position to dictate lean angle/tightness of the turn. 

 

In regard to riders dropping their head to alter line, it's also good practice to drop your head while driving out of corners in general as it lets you stand the bike up faster and get into the power sooner. The best way to tighten a line mid corner is to get off the bike more and not rely on the brakes at all. We are kind of getting into the "how do you not crash while racing" weeds in this street riding thread at this point, hehe. 

[blue03636]

3 minutes ago, what said:

If I'm having to adjust my line it's usually because I'm trying to pass or some dipwad I'm 6" away from decided he's going to intrude in my path of travel or has crashed and I now need to avoid their flailing body. Smooth, minute line adjustments leading to apex are done by modulating my trail braking, or, if I'm not actively on the brakes going into a corner, using throttle and body position to dictate lean angle/tightness of the turn. 

 

In regard to riders dropping their head to alter line, it's also good practice to drop your head while driving out of corners in general as it lets you stand the bike up faster and get into the power sooner. The best way to tighten a line mid corner is to get off the bike more and not rely on the brakes at all. We are kind of getting into the "how do you not crash while racing" weeds in this street riding thread at this point, hehe. 

You can bring your head in farther on entry to tighten up the line, entry and exit dips are 2 separate things. Street or track, it doesn't matter. You should be "relying" on the brakes. Go to a riding school, they will all tell you the same thing.

[what]

This is all ideal condition theory as well. Sometimes you fuck up your braking zone because you and the guy you're passing decide you're both going to drag race and try to out-brake each other and then almost eat it when you start to tip in because you've both blown the corner and are danger-close to turning 2 bikes into 1  (I'm on the grom in the black leathers)

 

 

 

[2talltim]

1 hour ago, Tpoppa said:

When the majority of riders say they "trail brake"  they are really panic braking from lack of confidence in their corner entry speed 🙄

I must not ride with the majority  

Edited August 5, 2019 by 2talltim

[2talltim]

1 hour ago, TimTheAzn said:

I don't know if I'm getting old or what, but if you need to trail brake on the streets, you're riding too fast on the streets. 

 

You were on a roll then fucked it up with that statement

Can't say I "need" to do it but it's how I roll. 

[what]

7 minutes ago, blue03636 said:

You can bring your head in farther on entry to tighten up the line, entry and exit dips are 2 separate things. Street or track, it doesn't matter. You should be "relying" on the brakes. Go to a riding school, they will all tell you the same thing.

My point was that I would rather "dip" or whatever you want to call it to tighten my line rather than mess with adding more load to my tires unnecessarily. 

[blue03636]

5 minutes ago, what said:

My point was that I would rather "dip" or whatever you want to call it to tighten my line rather than mess with adding more load to my tires unnecessarily. 

But they both add load.

[TimTheAzn]

5 minutes ago, what said:

My point was that I would rather "dip" or whatever you want to call it to tighten my line rather than mess with adding more load to my tires unnecessarily. 

Everything you do puts a load on your tire. Modulating the brake is more controllable/predictable than moving your body.

6 minutes ago, 2talltim said:

You were on a roll then fucked it up with that statement

Can't say I "need" to do it but it's how I roll. 

You coming into a corner vs. lets say whats his face Jonathan Weaver trail braking into a corner are two different things. You do it for comfort/ thats just how you ride most any corner. Jonathan does it because he aint making the corner if he doesnt bleed speed and get direction. But hey, look at what happened to him.

That comment was for all the Weavers in the world.

[what]

2 minutes ago, blue03636 said:

But they both add load.

Yeah but dipping lessens the lean angle on the bike without also adding resistance to the front tire.

 

There's resistance load(braking) and there's lateral load(speed + lean angle) - if I don't have to deal with adding more of both at the same time, it's my preference. 

Edited August 5, 2019 by what

[2talltim]

4 minutes ago, TimTheAzn said:

Everything you do puts a load on your tire. Modulating the brake is more controllable/predictable than moving your body.

You coming into a corner vs. lets say whats his face Jonathan Weaver trail braking into a corner are two different things. You do it for comfort/ thats just how you ride most any corner. Jonathan does it because he aint making the corner if he doesnt bleed speed and get direction. But hey, look at what happened to him.

That comment was for all the Weavers in the world.

I guess I didn't think about this either. It takes a little more effort to get a 750lb ST bike to turn in than it does a 400lb sporty. I did notice I didn't trail brake on the Z as much as I do the connie.  

[TimTheAzn]

14 minutes ago, what said:

Yeah but dipping lessens the lean angle on the bike without also adding resistance to the front tire.

 

There's resistance load(braking) and there's lateral load(speed + lean angle) - if I don't have to deal with adding more of both at the same time, it's my preference. 

You only have 100 points of grip total. How you decide to use them is up to you whether its using them to brake, or for lean angle, or for acceleration. 

100 points. Use them wisely. 

[blue03636]

18 minutes ago, what said:

Yeah but dipping lessens the lean angle on the bike without also adding resistance to the front tire.

 

There's resistance load(braking) and there's lateral load(speed + lean angle) - if I don't have to deal with adding more of both at the same time, it's my preference. 

You aren't adding lean with either, if you do you are asking for trouble. As for dipping decreasing lean angle, that's not the case. If you are using it to tighten up the turn, you don't dip and stand the bike up otherwise you didn't need to dip. The brakes are not scary, that is where you want to be. 

[what]

9 minutes ago, blue03636 said:

You aren't adding lean with either, if you do you are asking for trouble. As for dipping decreasing lean angle, that's not the case. If you are using it to tighten up the turn, you don't dip and stand the bike up otherwise you didn't need to dip. The brakes are not scary, that is where you want to be. 

 just a difference in preference I guess. And I never said either of them added lean, I said dipping/moving more inside on the bike lessens lean angle, which is 100% accurate. The reason dipping lets you tighten your line is because it stands the bike up a bit, allowing you to put more input into the bars, making your turn a bit tighter while maintaining your previous lean angle. You don't decrease your lean angle by doing this in practice but if you were to "dip" and not also maintain lean angle, the bike would end up more upright than before. The more body mass you move to the inside of the bike while leaned over, the less the bike itself stays leaned. 

 

This is all assuming your definition of "dipping" is moving your head/upper body down and inside more. 

[Tonik]

8 minutes ago, what said:

This is all assuming your definition of "dipping" is moving your head/upper body down and inside more. 

dipping

 

When you dip your penis into another person's alcoholic beverage.

 

That bro left his drink unattended. Time for some dipping.

[what]

Finally, @Tonik shows up to get this thread back on the rails and in line with his first post. 

[Tonik]

2 minutes ago, what said:

Finally, @Tonik shows up to get this thread back on the rails and in line with his first post. 

I actually like this thread. Lot of good info.

[TimTheAzn]

32 minutes ago, what said:

 just a difference in preference I guess. And I never said either of them added lean, I said dipping/moving more inside on the bike lessens lean angle, which is 100% accurate. The reason dipping lets you tighten your line is because it stands the bike up a bit, allowing you to put more input into the bars, making your turn a bit tighter while maintaining your previous lean angle. You don't decrease your lean angle by doing this in practice but if you were to "dip" and not also maintain lean angle, the bike would end up more upright than before. The more body mass you move to the inside of the bike while leaned over, the less the bike itself stays leaned. 

 

This is all assuming your definition of "dipping" is moving your head/upper body down and inside more. 

It sounds like you are making a mid-corner adjustment. You realize you are getting direction too early and need to stop having your radius decrease or you'll be in the inside grass so you stand the bike up, so you stop turning so much then realize oh crap I need to tuck back in to hit the apex. I use my bars at turn in sure, but once leaned over, I use my brakes to make steering adjustments for the most part.

Once you turn in you shouldn't be standing the bike up after turn in for any other reason besides the drive out, unless you're getting stuffed on the inside, someone is crashing in front of you (special circumstances).

If you are saying that by getting of the bike more you can carry the same speed with less lean angle while holding the same radius, then yes that is correct. It's what you should be doing.

Lean angle = risk and you want to be a highest lean angle for the shortest amount of time.

 

[TimTheAzn]

17 minutes ago, Tonik said:

I actually like this thread. Lot of good info.

Sorry, kinda got off topic and more track oriented. But the principals are relevant. I'm glad you got something out of all this track jargon.

[blue03636]

1 hour ago, what said:

The reason dipping lets you tighten your line is because it stands the bike up a bit, allowing you to put more input into the bars, making your turn a bit tighter while maintaining your previous lean angle.

Not a difference in preference, both should be used. Not going to lie, this sentence makes my head hurt. 🤣

[what]

1 hour ago, TimTheAzn said:

If you are saying that by getting of the bike more you can carry the same speed with less lean angle while holding the same radius, then yes that is correct. It's what you should be doing.

Yes this is what i'm saying, I'm not sure why all this debate is happening over proven physics. 

 

As for standing the bike up, any reduction in lean angle is, by definition, the bike standing up. Unless I'm having to drastically increase my radius because of unforeseen circumstances, I am never standing the bike up completely in a corner. I thought I explained above that throttle adjustment, altering body position by putting more weight on the inside of the bike, and light brake application (or any combination of the 3) is what's used for minute changes in line while cornering, but I must have been unclear.

 

My point about braking with the front for mid-corner line alteration is that I prefer to use throttle and body position to tighten/widen my line before re-applying or increasing pressure on the front brake leading into the apex. In my experience it's easier to get away with doing 2 of those 3 things when tightening my turn radius before I run into the feeling of losing the front. 

Edited August 5, 2019 by what

[blue03636]

I'm just saying that you will have more issues with letting off the gas mid corner than using the front brake. All of it loads the front the same but letting off the gas is more of an unknown every time as you may not be on the gas the same amount every time. Plus, you shouldn't be on the gas at all until the bike is pointed where you want it to go, usually post apex.