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TimTheAzn

Random Track Talk

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13 minutes ago, TwiztedRabbit said:

solid pace at both those tracks... any faster and (currently) your flirting with disaster...  not  ness. in mid corner but as you  trail brake in or get on the gas out.. you are really close to edge of traction zones. it truly is keeping you from obtaining more corner speed as  physically at that angle you cant go faster.

Honest question why is lud on the edge but this guy isn't wrecking?

download (1).jpg

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20 minutes ago, Tonik said:

Honest question why is lud on the edge but this guy isn't wrecking?

download (1).jpg

My guess would be body position, but I'm no track expert or even mediocre in my track knowledge...  :dunno:

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1 hour ago, Tonik said:

Honest question why is lud on the edge but this guy isn't wrecking?

download (1).jpg

there's so much rubber on the track that he gets a different friction bracket?

Depth of the turn and amount of corner left? in the pic lud appears to have a late apex.

Edited by motocat12

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2 minutes ago, motocat12 said:

there's so much rubber on the track that he gets a different friction bracket?

He actually isn't moving, just balanced on his elbow?

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there is a myriad of reasons..  number one is tire technology...  the tires they use are NOT available to us. even though you see 60ish degrees... in motoamerica bikes are lucky to reach max lean angles of 54-56 degrees (their tires are available to us) but that's just the tip of the iceberg.  one is can only reach those lean angles safely when your BP is on point.. otherwise you are putting to much stress on the carcass  and making the tire do the work of the suspension which is BAD...  to really get into it... the combo is  tires, bp,  suspension and EMU/throttle control  need the tires to be able to reach that lean and maintain traction.. to do so you need proper suspension.. (oem wont do it in most cases ) as if the suspension cannot  properly soak up and rebound  the  irregularities of the track the tier ends up  taking up the slack and doing things its not meant to do..  usually results in a crash.  next is your BP, BP is subjective  yet there still needs to be the same foundation... that is getting central mass off the top of the bike and lower than the center of gravity.  this allows you to  keep the bike angle lower (45-50 not 55) as the most traction is available on the side not the edge.(the idea is to always stay off the edge as much as possible  to get on the gas and brakes harder  I could compound this for hours)  lastly is EMU/Throttle control. it is combined as 1 is under out control the other isn't  ecu needs to have fueling on point.  tuned properly to  not always lean or rich spots that cause surging or lack of  power spots that could  cause you to have to  adjust throttle excessively mid corner.  throttle control throttle control throttle control...  smooth consistent throttle will allow you to maintain  smoothness  all the way thru the turn.  with out this  you can  basically pogo stick the bike as it will be  minutely transitioning weigh from front to back and so on thru the turn.. ... all of this  EVERY LAST BIT comes down to traction.. we do everything for traction...  every last  input in the bike is to maintain traction while getting around as quick as possible with the traction provided... (yes even the MA and GP guys drifting and sliding is still traction...) traction is still intact until your on your face.  soo  as run around and  ADD answer as that was.....  GP can do it because they have million dollar bikes on million dollar tires with million dollar suspension and million dollar EMU.  MA , WSBK and the likes cant even do it... but they get closer as they have   100k bikes with 100k suspension ect ect.... we  can get close to them because all our tech is trickle down...  long story.. get that BP in check

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Thanks man, appreciate the detail. Beyond BP I was betting part of it was tires. I could see my street tires could not lean over any more.

Something for you to watch for @tall_tracy when you run out of chicken strip you are done, you can't lean past that.

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Chicken strips don't necessarily mean you have more lean but you can work the tire more (brakes, gas,  etc.). Probably not explaining it well. 

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1 hour ago, blue03636 said:

Chicken strips don't necessarily mean you have more lean but you can work the tire more (brakes, gas,  etc.). Probably not explaining it well. 

So you are not going to lean past the edge of the tire...it stays formed to the track surface?

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On ‎8‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 11:10 AM, ludwb675 said:

Turn 13 at Nelsons. Slower right hand turn. Feels like I'm getting my head off the bike more than this; but apparently I'm not.

So how close am I to running out of lean angle? 

59a03ceb8a579_675pic.jpg.78572e7679611aaed7eefc3a7701399d.jpg

 

Using my handy dandy cad skills at work, i'm roughly at 52 degrees. I guess i still got a little bit further before i should start loosing grip. But i'm close enough where i feel i need to really start working on better body positioning. I can probably get my ass off the seat a bit more but need to make sure my head follows. Also need to get my torso closer to the tank with my head down by the handlebars. 

59a0778828576_675leanangle.JPG.94d660198a14d534281935f05ab9054b.JPG

 

Try digging into that corner a bit tighter to the inside and then run it outside going onto the front straight. 

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6 hours ago, Tonik said:

Thanks man, appreciate the detail. Beyond BP I was betting part of it was tires. I could see my street tires could not lean over any more.

Something for you to watch for @tall_tracy when you run out of chicken strip you are done, you can't lean past that.

True, luckily my legs are sooooo long that my knee will touch before I run out of lean angle.....  I'm kidding guys, so relax.  

I'm hoping to continue working on improving next year, and that's the whole reason for new rear sets and my own suit.  It was fun and I learned a bunch from it.

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4 hours ago, Tonik said:

So you are not going to lean past the edge of the tire...it stays formed to the track surface?

Chicken strips may exist on a guys bike that's running faster than another rider using all of their tire.   It's all dependent on how much the rider is getting off the side of the bike.  The tire will eventually run beyond it's edge and then down you go, but it's relative to how much you're getting "inside" of the bike in a corner.  From my limited experience, the more of you that's off the seat, the less lean angle you'll need to carry similar speeds through a corner.   Am I right?

Edited by Helmutt

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1 minute ago, Helmutt said:

Chicken strips may exist on a guys bike that's running faster than another rider using all of their tire.   It's all dependent on how much the rider is getting off the side of the bike.  The tire will eventually run beyond it's edge and then down you go, but it's relative to how much you're getting "inside" of the bike in a corner.  From my limited experience, the more of you that's off the seat, the less lean angle you'll need to carry similar speeds through a corner.   Am I right?

I totally agree with that. What I cant wrap my head around is in the pic of the pro he is far more leaned over than I have ever been and I had zero chicken strip left. Why isnt he past the edge of the tire and wrecking.

 

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34 minutes ago, Tonik said:

I totally agree with that. What I cant wrap my head around is in the pic of the pro he is far more leaned over than I have ever been and I had zero chicken strip left. Why isnt he past the edge of the tire and wrecking.

 

The MotoGP bikes and tires are a completely different animal than what's available everyday to us lowly consumers.  GP bikes are way more capable and their tire compounds/profiles are equally top notch.  Not to mention, Marquez damn near drags his shoulder when he's deep in a corner - his taint is probably resting on the right side case cover in that pic :lol: 

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1 hour ago, Tonik said:

I totally agree with that. What I cant wrap my head around is in the pic of the pro he is far more leaned over than I have ever been and I had zero chicken strip left. Why isnt he past the edge of the tire and wrecking.

 

 

squish

3402584755_df151afa41.jpg

Edited by motocat12

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like I said.. they have far advanced tech than any of us will ever have access too.. comparing what a gp  BIKE can do is like saying your accord should do what an indy car can do...

  on the subject of chicken strips...    they are only a piece of the puzzle.. I'm more concerned with where the  tire wear pattern is...  you can look at a tire and see where some one is braking   getting on the gas and of course leaning.  I can actually see it  mostly in the pic above...

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another thing is everyone is  diff physically .. look at dudes that drag knee everywhere or elbows...  they maybe just lankier than myself or others. there are so many people that are  at a moderate pace dragging everything  when others don't touch anything and would beat them by seconds... I  use my knee as a quick guide.. it taps then lifted at apex as a reference of my start of  aggressive cornering.. I allow it to touch then  pull it in as I reach my max lean at apex then it skims the ground and off as  on the gas...  I couldn't get my elbow down unless I wrecked... I have long legs and Trex arms...

 BP again is very important.  and you need to  solidify the base now.. if you don't.. you are limiting your own performance and  as you progress things will get more uncomfortable...  getting the BP right now will allow you to tweek it as you get smoother and  quicker.. remember that  you don't learn one BP then that's it... it is constantly evolving.. to your pace. this will also effect your line choice and brake points. 

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8 hours ago, Tonik said:

So you are not going to lean past the edge of the tire...it stays formed to the track surface?

No I'm saying that you can use other controls to reach the edge of the tire not necessarily lean. Yes leaning is a must but strips don't mean your not leaned over enough it just means your not working the tire enough. 

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to expound on Craig..  correct.. its usage  we run significantly lower tire pressures on track.. I run my rear tire at 19-25 psi hot  depending on track conditions.. this allows for a larger contact and traction zone.. so the tire can go past the edgeline but this is  far less than ideal....  we use BP and other controls to  keep it as far off that as we can while getting around said corner as quickly as traction will allow

 

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