School me on welding

[redkow97]

I have read the basics on MIG, TIG, flux core, etc.

Mig seems to be the easiest to teach myself, but the cost of equipment is also a factor. 

Where should a complete novice start?

 

i don't need to be making art-quality welds, but I may swap steering heads on a bike frame some day.  I also don't mind grinding to clean up spatter.  

[okeefe01]

Chris,

Mig is a decent starting point.  You can get setup fairly cheaply.  The biggest downside I have found with MIG welding is that the welds are very hard.  Sometimes that's what you want, but you spend a lot of time, and generate some additional heat if you want to grind the welds smooth.

I would love to have a TIG, but I just can't get over the cost.  I would also like an acetylene setup, but they cost as much as a MIG to get started.  I guess for all around welding and reasonable cost the MIG will be the way to go.  It just might not be great at some things.

Good Luck!

[Limitedslip7]

Go with TIG for sure. A little bit steeper learning curve but it will be worth it. You can weld anything with them and it will look far better. I think Lincoln has a good entry level inverter TIG now for a decent price, check out their Square Wave TIG 200 model. $1400 and does just about everything. I'm more of a Miller guy I've heard good things about it. 

[redkow97]

So is flux core garbage?

The units are cheap, and there's no gas to mess with, store, purchase, have blow up in my face, etc...  I'm not gonna lie, I was really leaning FCAW before everyone suggested everything but that.

[Gixxus Christ!]

Flux core is very limiting and the wire is more expensive.

 

Mig gas doesn't blow up....the I stands for inert....

 

With practive you can lay in some very nice beads with a properly set up mig. You're not gonna make gorgeous cup-walk welds like a tig but you can lay a pretty bead. 

 

If you have to grind your welds, you're not a welder, you're a grinder. 

[motocat12]

Lots of career center have welding classes. Delaware county where I went made you weld scrap and wouldn't let you build projects though. Also check local Maker/  techshop memberships.  

Cheap buzz boxes/flux core are still fun to play with $15 wire lasts a long time Just no Alu.

With a DC inverter arc welder you can use Alu sticks.

Brazing is another option for steel but if the blowing up part scares you....

Doing head stems you're looking at a bigger professional unit.

 

[Wolfman1]

My uncle is a certified welder.  His company builds a lot of complex machines.  He uses a MIG for most of his work and a TIG for the smaller more detailed work.  A good weld has zero splatter and no grinding necessary.  I used to use a MIG many years ago to weld aluminum dump truck/trailer floors and liners, it took some practice, but I picked it up pretty quickly.  We are both big fans of Miller welders, they make some of the most reliable welding equipment available.

[rawlins87]

13 hours ago, okeefe01 said:

Chris,

Mig is a decent starting point.  You can get setup fairly cheaply.  The biggest downside I have found with MIG welding is that the welds are very hard.  Sometimes that's what you want, but you spend a lot of time, and generate some additional heat if you want to grind the welds smooth.

I would love to have a TIG, but I just can't get over the cost.  I would also like an acetylene setup, but they cost as much as a MIG to get started.  I guess for all around welding and reasonable cost the MIG will be the way to go.  It just might not be great at some things.

Good Luck!

Explain this...

4 hours ago, redkow97 said:

So is flux core garbage?

The units are cheap, and there's no gas to mess with, store, purchase, have blow up in my face, etc...  I'm not gonna lie, I was really leaning FCAW before everyone suggested everything but that.

Flux core is great. Most people assume it's the same as mig and have a hard time with it.  Flux core is great if welding in the field and you don't have a stick welder.

42 minutes ago, Wolfman1 said:

My uncle is a certified welder.  His company builds a lot of complex machines.  He uses a MIG for most of his work and a TIG for the smaller more detailed work.  A good weld has zero splatter and no grinding necessary.  I used to use a MIG many years ago to weld aluminum dump truck/trailer floors and liners, it took some practice, but I picked it up pretty quickly.  We are both big fans of Miller welders, they make some of the most reliable welding equipment available.

All welds will splatter.  Yes better dialed in it will splatter less but it still will.  Not prep and time with splatter spray will prevent the bb's from sticking.

[redkow97]

4 hours ago, CrazySkullCrusher said:

Mig gas doesn't blow up....the I stands for inert....

I should have been more clear - a friend of mine had the GAUGE on his argon tank explode in his face last weekend.  He may lose his right eye.  I also prefer not to store a tank in the garage.  Perhaps I'm envisioning something larger than I would actually need. 

That incident has me a little spooked, and leery of any pressurized gasses. It appears to have been a catastrophic valve failure.

[scottb]

Check out http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/, good site and the guy speaks in terms a beginner can understand.

I just attended a week long intro welding class at Lincoln Electric. It was a basic class with exposure to mig, stick, tig and plasma cutting.  It was a mix of about 2 hours classroom and the rest of the day in the weld booth. 

Depends on what you plan to work on and the type of base material.

I really liked the tig, It took me about three hours of welding beads to get the rhythm of moving the tig torch, filler material rod and the cadence of the actually making the weld. Oh, plus with tig, you have the foot pedal that control the amperage. If you end up touching the tungsten to the filler rod, or the base material, you need to grind the tungsten on a grinder wheel that is dedicated to only tungsten. It is very tricky to keep a 1/16 distance of the tungsten to the base metal. 

Once you get a good under standing of the basics, you will be able to weld by the sight of the puddle and the sound of the weld.

the American Welding society has set up the Welding Procedure Specifications for just about every type of weld, material and position. It will spell out the basic settings for amps, volts, amount of gas, location the first weld, second pass and more welds if needed.

Also, the quality of the wire / rods used will also affect the outcome of the weld. 

 

 

[okeefe01]

With a MIG, the heat source is the wire, so the material being welded is heated right at the weld point.  With TIG, the heat source is the tungsten torch, so the material being welded tends to have the heat spread farther into it.  Supposedly this makes the MIG weld cool quicker than TIG which makes it harder (a little like hardening versus tempering).  I'm a self-confessed rat turd welder, so I guess I qualify more as a grinder, and a MIG weld always takes more time to grind.  Now, that could also be that you can't control the speed of the wire (during the weld) with a MIG where you can control the flow with a TIG, so maybe I just get more wire into the weld making me have more to grind.  LOL

 

[redkow97]

it sounds like I need ot find a trade school that has evening classes...

[rawlins87]

8 hours ago, okeefe01 said:

With a MIG, the heat source is the wire, so the material being welded is heated right at the weld point.  With TIG, the heat source is the tungsten torch, so the material being welded tends to have the heat spread farther into it.  Supposedly this makes the MIG weld cool quicker than TIG which makes it harder (a little like hardening versus tempering).  I'm a self-confessed rat turd welder, so I guess I qualify more as a grinder, and a MIG weld always takes more time to grind.  Now, that could also be that you can't control the speed of the wire (during the weld) with a MIG where you can control the flow with a TIG, so maybe I just get more wire into the weld making me have more to grind.  LOL

 

I've never heard someone say tig welding creates more heat than mig...

[okeefe01]

This explains it better than I did... https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/mig-versus-tig/

 

[rawlins87]

I understand how to weld I just think you had stuff mixed up.

[Eric LeClair]

Hey don't forget your safety gear. A Welding mask is a must. Just making sure because you mentioned you are a newbie. Or if you are feeling adventurous, you can always 3d print one. Ha!

[redkow97]

I'm going to take a class at a trade school before I buy any equipment beyond the mask, gloves, etc.

It's clear that I don't know enough about welding to know what kind I would use most often.  I also have a basketcase XR100 in the garage that the previous owner did some seriously shitty welding on...  Makes me want to do it right.

[TRMN8TR]

Just now, redkow97 said:

I'm going to take a class at a trade school before I buy any equipment beyond the mask, gloves, etc.

It's clear that I don't know enough about welding to know what kind I would use most often.  I also have a basketcase XR100 in the garage that the previous owner did some seriously shitty welding on...  Makes me want to do it right.

Taking a class is a good start. I was going to add that it's really hard to tell you what would be best for you (MIG, TIG, Stick/ARC) without knowing what you're trying to weld. 

A MIG welder might be the most versatile welder for a hobbyist, all around welder at your house. But with that said, most of the units you'd be looking at that run off 110V or single phase 220V are never going to give you nice clean welds. They're only capable of doing "short arc" which creates a lot of spatter. They can't sustain enough current to create a "spray" transfer which greatly reduces the amount of spatter. 

For what you are looking to do (assuming motorcycle stuff, steel frames, maybe some aluminum here and there) I might push you towards a TIG welder. I work at LE and I can't justify the cost of one of their welders. Someone mentioned a Square Wave TIG 200 which is a great welder and the one I would want in my garage if I had $1400 to blow, but I don't. Instead I have an Eastwood TIG 200 which has been a great welder and I've used it a ton over the last 3 years. When I bought it they were around $600 new. 

For either welder, you'd want a bottle for shielding gas. Argon/CO2 blend for MIG, straight Argon for TIG. You can weld FCAW but on a small MIG welder it's going to have a lot of spatter. Not what you'll want on a XR 100 frame if you're saying previous welds look like crap. Get a 80 cubic ft. tank. They're about as big as you'd want to go and be able to handle it yourself. You can find tanks on craigslist for like $125 and refills are in the $30 range. 

[rawlins87]

If you get setup with mig your local welding supply will offer different percentages of argon/co2.  75/25 will get you buy but is the cheapest.

[JordanOfGilead]

On ‎8‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 9:07 AM, redkow97 said:

So is flux core garbage?

The units are cheap, and there's no gas to mess with, store, purchase, have blow up in my face, etc...  I'm not gonna lie, I was really leaning FCAW before everyone suggested everything but that.

The biggest downside I have experienced from the cheaper flux core welders is that they have a much lower duty cycle. They work great for learning the basics regarding technique and power settings (obviously you won't learn anything about gas flow) and for thinner sheet metal, but wear out quickly if you try to weld a bunch of, say, 1/4" thick angle iron. Ask me how I know.

 

It all depends on what you're looking to get out of it. If you are just wanting to tack some stuff together and it doesn't need to withstand a lot of abuse or look pretty, flux core will do just fine. If you are looking to do more structural welds, a GMAW (Gas Metal Arc Welder, formerly known as MIG - Metal Inert Gas) Welder is more what you're looking for. I say GMAW because CO2 isn't technically an inert gas, but can still be used with a "mig" welder, so they changed the name a couple years back even though 99% of people still call it MIG.

[Earache]

MIG with a Pulse setting and an aluminum spool gun and you're all set.

Gonna cost ya though.

[Sportbike Steve]

On 8/16/2016 at 0:42 PM, Wolfman1 said:

My uncle is a certified welder.

I'm not trying to knock you or him, but since this is a welding thread and I'm a pipe welder by trade, I feel it needs addressed. So many people throw around the term "certified welder". The term is a giant misnomer, unfortunately. The big dog on the global stage is the American Welding Society. It's effectively the last word on welding, weld engineering, etc. Essentially, they set the standards for certification. The ironworkers union uses welding tests developed and administered by the AWS. The UA (pipe fitters union) has it's own testing, under the oversight of the AWS, which will be fully handled by AWS from 2018 onward. Boilermakers have a similar system. These certifications are numbered, which corresponds with the welding process and specifications for position, root, filler, cap, etc. These are nationally recognized, transferrable certifications that must be maintained with continuity tracking and renewal via weld test and send off. They get x-ray and deformation testing to insure that only acceptable welds are being made before a person is deemed to have completed the requirements for certification. This falls back to a lot of ASME codes and what not, but that's a whole different story.

Anyhow, when a person tells you they're a "certified welder", ask them what certificates they have. If they only mention a process, it's only a shop certification which is virtually meaningless in industry where welds count. If they say something like "I've got UA-21, 41, and 63." you're dealing with someone that actually has globally recognized training.

[magley64]

CSC pretty much said what I was going to say. MIG with argon/co2 is what I use, it's cheap, and can accommodate a pretty wide range of projects. If you've got some coin to throw down and plan to do a lot of sheet metal, TIG is the way to go.