smashweights Posted August 16, 2014 Report Share Posted August 16, 2014 Eye witness accounts all point to a young black male being shot when running away, then being executed when he attempted to surrender. That is the issue. Not cigars, not a robbery. It shouldn't matter if he was a priest, a robber, an honor student, etc. Police are sworn to protect all citzens, not just the ones they happen feel are savory individuals. That same police department shooting tear gas at reporters to prevent filming doesn't exactly build their credibility that their actions were justified. This is really all that matters. If the guy was 30 feet away and unarmed and shot, nothing he did previously can justify it. Even if he allegedly tried to grab the officer's gun beforehand, that situation was over. The potential robbery beforehand has nothing to do with it and any discussion of things before is just a distraction. If he was unarmed and not CURRENTLY a direct threat to the officer when shot to death, it was murder. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted August 16, 2014 Report Share Posted August 16, 2014 (edited) This is really all that matters. If the guy was 30 feet away and unarmed and shot, nothing he did previously can justify it. Even if he allegedly tried to grab the officer's gun beforehand, that situation was over. The potential robbery beforehand has nothing to do with it and any discussion of things before is just a distraction. If he was unarmed and not CURRENTLY a direct threat to the officer when shot to death, it was murder. The police version was that the officer gave chase and the final shots were fired at close range. The eyewitnesses version(s) were not clear to me on how far the officer was from Brown when the last shots were fired - does anyone have more information on that? I agree that even if he did try to grab the officer's gun, after he stopped trying to do that and ran away he is not a direct deadly threat any more. Not sure why the officer chose to shoot as he was running away - an action reserved only when allowing the person to escape would present an immediate danger to the public. The alleged grabbing of the gun has not been proven or refuted. That is simply a claim at this point. As is the "hands up" claim. Don't forget that in the Trayvon Martin killing, 3 different eyewitnesses stated that Zimmerman was the one pinning Martin down and that he shot downwards. Edited August 16, 2014 by Scruit 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted August 16, 2014 Report Share Posted August 16, 2014 (edited) I appreciate your counter point, but I think you are putting too much stock in the "benefit of the doubt" when there are key items that are not in doubt. There are undeniable facts.1. An 18 year old unarmed kid is dead at the hands of the FPD.2. There are multiple eye witness accounts that agree that the kid was retreating and then trying to surrender when he was shot and killed. 3. Tear gas was shot at reporters by the FPD to prevent filming. Reporters were arrested to also prevent filming. That kind of shit happens in Iran & Syria, not in the US. 4. The Missouri Governor relieved the FPD of their duty in handling the riot that they played a large part in instigating. When is the last time you remember that happening on American soil? All signs point to a police department run amok. They clearly did not want outside involvement or attention from the press. Now they're under the national microscope. Did you watch the statement from the police chief about the robbery not being connected? Those were not the words of a confident man that believes the situation was handled properly. I'm separating the crowd control aspect into a separate case involving different people. I'm focusing on the shooting right now. WE could/should start another thread discussing crowd control as clearly there are right ways and wrong ways to handle it. More counter points: - Speaking in general rather than about Brown, an unarmed person can still be a deadly threat. - Multiple eyewitnesses, while very compelling, have been known to be wrong. Remember the 3 eyewitnesses that put Zimmerman on top of Martin? - It is agreed between police and eyewitnesses that a confrontation happened at the cruiser, and that the last shots were fired when Brown was 35 feet away from the cruiser. Clearly there was an event that happened between those two confrontations wherein Brown moved away from the cruiser. That supports the eyewitness accounts that Brown was running away. I can't determine if that fits with the police version as I understand the police have not yet released their official version of the shooting, am I correct? - Does the police version say they shot him in the back as he was running away. Upon what rule, law, policy etc do they justify that shot? - Wasn't one of the eyewitnesses with Brown when he allegedly robbed the store? That could become a credibility issue in court. - Was there any dashcam or body cam? The witnesses state the cruiser confrontation was in two parts - an initial contact then the cruiser drove away, followed by the cruiser backing up right next to Brown. The police stated that Brown advanced on the officer int he cruiser, the eyewitness stated that the officer opened his door into Brown who did not move. Dashcam would clear that up quickly. Edited August 16, 2014 by Scruit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScubaCinci Posted August 16, 2014 Report Share Posted August 16, 2014 The safest place to be in Ferguson is a book store 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InyaAzz Posted August 16, 2014 Report Share Posted August 16, 2014 This place hasn't changed much. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblosser Posted August 16, 2014 Report Share Posted August 16, 2014 I've been absent from this forum for more than a year for a variety of reasons, but I couldn't let this pass without comment... This article can't be serious; http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/15/living/parenting-black-sons-ferguson-missouri/index.html?hpt=hp_bn1 What part of this article do you not find serious? Being white, you experience positive profiling from law enforcement, i.e. you're white, you aren't dressed "like a gangster", thus you won't get much scrutiny. My girlfriend lives in Chicago. She's black (actually, a beautiful shade of brown). She has an advanced degree from a private school , earns well into the 6 figures, and is always dressed well. She gets followed in stores to this day. Believe it or not, but it's true. Not every store, obviously, but it does happen. She told me last night that she's so thankful she has a daughter instead of a son, and that her daughter has two girls, not boys. She knows what <could> happen to black men...she experiences racism as a black woman. If you don't believe that "white privilege" exisits, if you don't believe that law enforcement treats black people differently than white people, then you're kidding yourself. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casper Posted August 16, 2014 Report Share Posted August 16, 2014 I've been absent from this forum for more than a year for a variety of reasons, but I couldn't let this pass without comment...I've missed you. I'm glad you're back, if even only for this comment. Since I ditched Facebook I don't hear from you anymore. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigerpaw Posted August 16, 2014 Report Share Posted August 16, 2014 I won't type up an epic post. @Tpoppa has pretty much summarized my feelings, and written them in a well thought out manner. I will say: 1) Looting, rioting, and protests are all completely different. 2) I will not make an opinion on this case until more FACTS are released. Even then, it is my personal OPINION. 3) Police should never take a life unless theirs is CURRENTLY in IMMEDIATE DANGER of death/near death or the public is icurrently in immediate danger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gump Posted August 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2014 I won't type up an epic post. @Tpoppa has pretty much summarized my feelings, and written them in a well thought out manner. I will say.2) I will not make an opinion on this case until more FACTS are released. Even then, it is my personal OPINION..Or basically until other videos come out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted August 16, 2014 Report Share Posted August 16, 2014 The police version was that the officer gave chase and the final shots were fired at close range. The eyewitnesses version(s) were not clear to me on how far the officer was from Brown when the last shots were fired - does anyone have more information on that?The body was laying 30-35 feet from the vehicle face down in the road. The vehicle is where the officer alleges there was a struggle. That is also a very close match to eye witness accounts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted August 16, 2014 Report Share Posted August 16, 2014 IMore counter points: - Speaking in general rather than about Brown, an unarmed person can still be a deadly threat. - Was there any dashcam or body cam? The witnesses state the cruiser confrontation was in two parts - an initial contact then the cruiser drove away, followed by the cruiser backing up right next to Brown. The police stated that Brown advanced on the officer int he cruiser, the eyewitness stated that the officer opened his door into Brown who did not move. Dashcam would clear that up quickly. Not when the person surrenders. That is the end of the engagement, no matter what happened prior. FPD chief has already stated multiple times that they don't use cameras. If there was dashcam footage that supported the officers claim, it would have already been released at the same time as the store footage. If there was dashcam footage that supported the witnesses claims it would have been burned by now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblosser Posted August 16, 2014 Report Share Posted August 16, 2014 I sincerely hope that Mr. Brown did, in fact, get into a fight with the officer and the shooting of him was justified. If the facts play out otherwise and he was, for lack of a better word, murdered; that will only further erode the public's (of all hues) waning trust of law enforcement. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohiomike Posted August 16, 2014 Report Share Posted August 16, 2014 (edited) But we mustn't speak ill of unions... This goes far beyond 'unionism'. Police have a Blue Line and no one breaks that. Imho it goes far deeper than any union membership and can impact 'having ones back'. Road patrol Leos have it a bit different, but the 'grunts' need their partners knowing that when shtf their partner had their back. Its life or death quite often. Cross the Line and you might end up like Chris Dorner. Edited August 16, 2014 by ohiomike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkow97 Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 "Positive profiling" is a load of shit. Police profile anyone who looks out of place. A black kid in bexley gets police attention as a likely burglar just like a white kid in east Cleveland will get attention for buying drugs. Police profile because it's effective. It's not "right," but it is effective, and that gets their job done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad324 Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 (edited) So far all I can say that every single individual involved in this is in the wrong. Police, suspect shot, rioters, etc... Edited August 17, 2014 by Bad324 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 (edited) The body was laying 30-35 feet from the vehicle face down in the road. The vehicle is where the officer alleges there was a struggle. That is also a very close match to eye witness accounts. The thing I'm not clear on is if the eyewitnesses say the officer was still in or at his cruiser when the final shots were fired - or if he was in active pursuit and much closer. I could see it being argued that if the officer was within reach of Brown when Brown stopped and turned then it could have been mistaken as a turn to fight versus a turn to surrender. Many fighting styles use a passive/defensive-appearing "ready stance" (Kamae) with hands up, palms out (Krav Maga, Karate etc) that is trained with the express intent of appearing to be non-aggressive. Not saying this is what happened... Just pointing out that even "hands up" is not always clear-cut, and that nothing should be taken for granted. The witnesses were not clear on how long Brown had his hands up before being shot. Was it a few seconds, more tha enough for the officer to see and react to the surrender? Or was it a split-second thing where the officer had to decide if this was a surrender or an attack? Having said that, if the officer stayed at his vehicle and fired from there then no such similar claim could be made, and his justification for the use of deadly force would have to be based upon something other than him, being in immediate danger, regardless of what pose or stance Brown took. Edited August 17, 2014 by Scruit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 Not when the person surrenders. That is the end of the engagement, no matter what happened prior. FPD chief has already stated multiple times that they don't use cameras. If there was dashcam footage that supported the officers claim, it would have already been released at the same time as the store footage. If there was dashcam footage that supported the witnesses claims it would have been burned by now. Notwithstanding my comment above about fighting stances explicitly designed to make you look like a victim to witnesses... 100% agree... Surrender is surrender - it's over, arrest him. (Assuming the surrender was not a tactical ploy to bring the officer in close enough to attack him again, however the police have tactics to deal with that kind of scenario...) Without specific information that Brown was armed, the situation appears to fall under Tennessee v Garner 1985 wherein it was held that: A police officer may not seize an unarmed, nondangerous suspect by shooting him dead...however...Where the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a threat of serious physical harm, either to the officer or to others, it is not constitutionally unreasonable to prevent escape by using deadly force. I haven't heard anything that would lead me to believe the officer had any reason to believe that a fleeing Brown posed a threat of serious physical harm to anyone. Whether the surrendering Brown was a threat could be more nuanced as stated above. The police need to release their side of the story quickly, as we're only hearing one side right now. The only shot the police have admitting taking so far (from what I read) was fired inside the vehicle. If there's more than one bullet wound in Brown then that's already a problem where the police need to explain the additional bullet wounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 I could see it being argued that if the officer was within reach of Brown when Brown stopped and turned then it could have been mistaken as a turn to fight versus a turn to surrender. Many fighting styles use a passive/defensive-appearing "ready stance" (Kamae) with hands up, palms out (Krav Maga, Karate etc) that is trained with the express intent of appearing to be non-aggressive. Not saying this is what happened... Just pointing out that even "hands up" is not always clear-cut, and that nothing shoudl be taken for granted. That is a reallllllllllllllly loooooooong reach to try to make it sound like the officer acted in self defense. How about this...if the officer was within reach, it would only be because he was chasing Brown with his gun drawn and firing. That is a case of the officer escalating the situation with Brown attempting to retreat after he was allegedly already shot either once or twice. Hands up with one or two bullets in him is not what I consider a threat. Also, Brown was shot in the face multiple times, which were the final shots fired according to eye witnesses. Have you ever heard of police officers or even military being trained to shoot in the face rather than center mass? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 Good reading on police use of deadly force: http://www.vox.com/2014/8/13/5994305/michael-brown-case-investigation-legal-police-kill-force-murder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 (edited) That is a reallllllllllllllly loooooooong reach to try to make it sound like the officer acted in self defense. How about this...if the officer was within reach, it would only be because he was chasing Brown with his gun drawn and firing. That is a case of the officer escalating the situation with Brown attempting to retreat after he was allegedly already shot either once or twice. Hands up with one or two bullets in him is not what I consider a threat. Also, Brown was shot in the face multiple times, which were the final shots fired according to eye witnesses. Have you ever heard of police officers or even military being trained to shoot in the face rather than center mass? Like I said; I'm not saying that happened. Just saying that "He had his hands up" is not always a definitive thing. I'm also saying that the only way the officer could claim he thought was in danger when Brown turned would be if the officer was in fighting range, something the witnesses were not clear about. When Brown started fleeing the officer suddenly took on a huge burden of justifying deadly force - and I've heard nothing that even hints that such a justification existed. Whether he claims the surrender was mistaken as a turn-to-attack is pure speculation on my part, and would be a difficult case to make in face of 4 eye witnesses who have all said that Brown was clearly surrendering. Edited August 17, 2014 by Scruit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casper Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 I would like to take this time to remind everyone that racism won't be tolerated on this website. Several comments in this thread have teetered the line and maybe even crossed it. Please, don't break this rule. I know emotions are running high in this case. Let's tone it down a notch though. I don't want to see people make enemies here because of this. Remember, we all ride. That's the common bond here. Politics will never be a common bond. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruit Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 (edited) A video from the scene: http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/bestoftv/2014/08/16/nd-ferguson-cell-phone-video-mike-brown-body-on-ground.cnn&hpt=hp_t1&from_homepage=yes&video_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F%3Fhpt%3Dsitenav In this video claims are made that the officer "stood over his and shot him while he was laying on the ground". This is a new claim I haven't heard thus far. Edited August 17, 2014 by Scruit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Punk Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 Typical CNN. They have edited the video above to narrate the story how they want it told without regard for truth. Putting out a video from someone that admits on the video that he saw nothing but is saying stupid things. In the link below there is more of the same video above where someone that actually saw what happened talks. It's very hard to tell what they are saying but it will most likely support the facts when they are officially released. http://www.brennerbrief.com/witness-michael-brown-bum-rushed-cop/ The stupid bitch friend of the family should be keeping her mouth shut. I wish the police were quicker in releasing information but they can't release their findings until they are facts, not speculation. Speculation has caused all of this trouble. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tpoppa Posted August 17, 2014 Report Share Posted August 17, 2014 I posted the unedited version of that video earlier in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cOoTeR Posted August 18, 2014 Report Share Posted August 18, 2014 http://eaglerising.com/7996/breaking-story-friend-missouri-cop-shot-teen-tells-officers-side-story/#ku4W8aAbdMYUS3FI.01Here's a different side of the story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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