Michael Brown shooting

[cOoTeR]

So 12 is "old enough to know better" in your opinion. How about if he were 10? 8? 5? Clearly there has to be a line. At what age does playing with a toy, even "irresponsibly" not cost you your life at the hands of those who are supposed to protect you?

In a life or death situation the police have to factor in the threat to their life first. 12 years old is a considered a young adult. Old enough to be tried for murder. Old enough to kill someone. The cops don't have time to get an exact age when they arrive. The person's size is the factor they are going off of more than age. A person's of a younger ashe can still be a threat when equipped with a gun. That's the factor to go on. The cops had no way of knowing the gun was fake until it gets into their hands. They had reason to believe it was real and have to side with caution when approaching a person with a gun. They are going to believe it's real until they see otherwise regardless of whose holding it. You can't put it out that a person can't defend themselves from a person with a gun if they are under a certain age.

[madcat6183]

Im not going to waste my breath arguing with Magz anymore, it's pointless.

 

So with that here;http://news.yahoo.com/troopers-drive-87-old-across-utah-see-son-233756951.html

 

Fucking Cops, always doing terrible shit to people, just like that story.

[magley64]

Fucking Cops, always doing terrible shit to people, just like that story.

Not "fucking cops" THESE SHITTY FUCKING COPS IN PARTICULAR. There are plenty of competent and compassionate police officers who do their job correctly without murdering children.

Edited December 9, 2014 by magley64

[cOoTeR]

Not "fucking cops" THESE SHITTY FUCKING COPS IN PARTICULAR. There are plenty of competent and compassionate police officers who do their job correctly without murdering children.

I'm sure you can do a better job with how awesome your armchair quarterbacking skills are. Why don't you become a cop make the world a better place.

[myhondas]

I just love Monday morning quarterbacks who pass judgment on the incidents of the world without all the facts and without the common sense that has disappeared from this country. Try removing your ?racism? ?narrow minded? & ?one sided? ?bias? views and general lack of knowledge and just try to look at all the facts that are available to us. This of course, is not ALL of the facts, but just the ones that are out there for us to use. Try, for just once in your life, to give a situation an objective observation. It would help if you had any real world experience in a similar situation and / or job.  The "Walk a mile in my shoes" has real implications here. But then again, no one wants to take responsibility for their actions and heaven help us if we dare to mention that the lack of parenting is an epidemic today. There is plenty of blame for ALL parties involved in this unfortunate incident. Not any one person can be cited for being the main cause of what happened. Lots of errors were made and sadly a young life came to an end. So put your noose and rope back in the drawer and wait till ALL the facts come out and the justice system runs its course. Lynch mobs are not the solution.

 

minor rant but a justifiable one.

Edited December 9, 2014 by myhondas

[drc32-0]

Is it OK if I point out that you guys are debating the Cleveland shooting in the Michael Brown thread?  I agree that the kid (Tamir Rice) shouldn't have been shot for his actions shown on the video….Michael Brown, on the other hand, probably caused his own death.  I still say that the REAL trigger of what appears to be an overly quick shooting was as a direct result of the driver-cop's actions.  If he hadn't pulled up with his partner's door less than 10 feet from a reported 'kid with a gun' the shooter wouldn't have had to make a snap decision.  If the car had been stopped further back and angled in a position where the passenger door could have been used as a shield, there would have been additional time for the shooter to assess the situation and take a defensive position.  In this case, it appears to me both of the officers were incompetent….at best.

Jeez,if everyone did that OR would lose a large percentage of its posts.This dead horse thread alone has dragged on for 34 pages...far longer than any thread related to motorcycles.

[madcat6183]

I'm sure you can do a better job with how awesome your armchair quarterbacking skills are. Why don't you become a cop make the world a better place.

Yeah I agree, that was lame, I expected something better. 

[Josh1234]

Not "fucking cops" THESE SHITTY FUCKING COPS IN PARTICULAR. There are plenty of competent and compassionate police officers who do their job correctly without murdering children.

 

There are also plenty of 12 year olds playing with guns in their back yards instead of public parks.  There's also plenty of 12 year olds who wouldn't hesitate to shoot a cop if they had the chance.

 

Hey, let's put all that information together, yours and mine, and come up with a doctrine that tries to govern our society safely.  And hey, when officers of the law volunteer to put their life on the line to protect me and mine, let's support them when they shoot first because a person who is reported to have a gun reaches in their waistband and pulls one out.

 

And DON'T give me the argument about them holding their fire when someone draws on them.  Too many cops have already died and let gunmen walk away because they didn't want to shoot.  If someone pulls a gun on a cop, they deserve to die.  I don't care what color they are or how old they are.

[magley64]

At what point did this child "pull a gun" on police? Never, that's when.

They didn't see anything resembling a gun until after he was dead

Edited December 9, 2014 by magley64

[Tonik]

You peeps defending the Cleveland Police amaze me.  A year ago the Ohio Attorney general investigated them and said they were all fucked up.  A week ago the US Attorney General said they were REALLY fucked up.  Heres a hint, the Cleveland Police are not like most other police departments. They are FUCKED UP. They have a pattern of using excessive force. Pistol whipping people in handcuffs. Tasing non-violent handicapped people until they are dead.  They have a pattern of handling situations very badly which leads to them having to use deadly force when they should not have had to. Like this 12 year old situation, they rolled up 2 feet away from him giving the passenger cop no choice but to shoot inside of 1.5 seconds. It is a perfect example of where THEY didn't follow proper procedure which escalated the situation leading to the need to use deadly force.

 

Cops make mistakes, we have to accept that. But when there is a long term pattern of mistakes that lead to death you have to accept they are fucked up. I get that the police, nationally, are getting way more heat than they deserve but Cleveland is an exception. They are getting far less heat than they deserve.

 

If you don't hold those two cops responsible for their mistake when they rolled up, and the dispatcher for not giving the cops all the info then you are just like the Cleveland Police. Fucked up.

[cOoTeR]

At what point did this child "pull a gun" on police? Never, that's when.

They didn't see anything resembling a gun until after he was dead

Wasn't It reported that when he was shot the gun landed beside him? Leads me to believe it was being removed from his waistband. It was reported that the kid had a gun in his waistband. Possibly visible maybe not but regardless the cops are going to react as if there is a gun where it was reported to be. Reaching towards that area especially while being told to do something else shows intent. The three factors used to determine if a use of deadly force self defense is justifiable are Means opportunity and intent. Means, the cops received information he had a gun so it is reasonable for the cops to believe he had the means to cause death. Opportunity, the cops were within firing range. Intent not putting his hands up and possibly moving his hands towards a go shows intent to not comply and possibly use the firearm. Waiting until the weapon is drawn could cost the cops their life.

[Pokey]

Remember.........Duane thinks that a 21 year old is a child as well. The kid screwed up big time and maybe the cop did too, but the real problems and issues at hand that lead up to bad situations like this start at home. Kids are involved in gangs every bit at this age, and kids are used and or are fighting in past and present war conflicts at that early of an age as well. Raised in a certain environment, and many times you become that environment. I hate for that kid being dead, I hate for that officer who took him down..........but shit aint gonna change until people decide to change their lives and be responsible parents and citizens. If your born in the ghetto or in a bad situation, do your best to get out.......immigrants both legal and illegal seem to thrive and prosper just fine with creating a better life for themselves here. Lazy victim mentality Americans are also thriving in this country, and they don't want to work hard, be responsible and accountable, or play by the rules like the rest of us.

[cOoTeR]

You peeps defending the Cleveland Police amaze me. A year ago the Ohio Attorney general investigated them and said they were all fucked up. A week ago the US Attorney General said they were REALLY fucked up. Heres a hint, the Cleveland Police are not like most other police departments. They are FUCKED UP. They have a pattern of using excessive force. Pistol whipping people in handcuffs. Tasing non-violent handicapped people until they are dead. They have a pattern of handling situations very badly which leads to them having to use deadly force when they should not have had to. Like this 12 year old situation, they rolled up 2 feet away from him giving the passenger cop no choice but to shoot inside of 1.5 seconds. It is a perfect example of where THEY didn't follow proper procedure which escalated the situation leading to the need to use deadly force.

Cops make mistakes, we have to accept that. But when there is a long term pattern of mistakes that lead to death you have to accept they are fucked up. I get that the police, nationally, are getting way more heat than they deserve but Cleveland is an exception. They are getting far less heat than they deserve.

If you don't hold those two cops responsible for their mistake when they rolled up, and the dispatcher for not giving the cops all the info then you are just like the Cleveland Police. Fucked up.

So the Ohio attorney general and the Federal Attorney General both say the Cleveland PD is "fucked up"? What have they done to fix the issues? What law suites have been filed against them to weed out the problem causers? If they are as evil as you say why isnt anything being done about it? Or is it just more stuff being trumped up by the media leaving out details to sway an opinion? Edited December 9, 2014 by cOoTeR

[Tonik]

So the Ohio attorney general and the Federal Attorney General both say the Cleveland PD is "fucked up"? What have they done to fix the issues? What law suites have been filed against them to weed out the problem causers? If they are as evil as you say why isnt anything being done about it? Or is it just more stuff being trumped up by the media leaving out details to sway an opinion?

 

Ok, now it all makes sense. You peeps are commenting on the CPD without having a clue about what is really going on.  The US Attorney general investigated them for over a year and just issued a 158 page report on the problems of the CPD, citing numerous civil rights violations, search and seizure violations, training problems and use of excessive force. As for what is being done, the Feds forced the CPD into a consent decree that includes all the necessary changes that will be monitored by an independent committee and enforced by a court.

 

Understand what that means. It means the DOJ nailed them so hard that the CPD and the City of Cleveland didn't even fight back, they accepted the findings, they accpeted the conditions and changes that the DOJ is asking for, and agreed that it would be a legally binding court enforced agreement. No fight at all, total capitulation by the city.

 

Keep in mind, the DOJ investigation started over a YEAR before all this other crap.

 

Now, you want to defend the Ferguson police, or the NYPD I get that. But you are way out of line on the Cleveland PD. They are bad, very bad.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Tonik

[blue03636]

So if the gun was real, he should have waited until he was shot to counter? Cops have probably the shittiest job out there, everyone wants to second guess their decision and treat them like shit. 

[magley64]

Remember.........Duane thinks that a 21 year old is a child as well. The kid screwed up big time and maybe the cop did too, but the real problems and issues at hand that lead up to bad situations like this start at home. Kids are involved in gangs every bit at this age, and kids are used and or are fighting in past and present war conflicts at that early of an age as well. Raised in a certain environment, and many times you become that environment. I hate for that kid being dead, I hate for that officer who took him down..........but shit aint gonna change until people decide to change their lives and be responsible parents and citizens. If your born in the ghetto or in a bad situation, do your best to get out.......immigrants both legal and illegal seem to thrive and prosper just fine with creating a better life for themselves here. Lazy victim mentality Americans are also thriving in this country, and they don't want to work hard, be responsible and accountable, or play by the rules like the rest of us.

Yeah, fuck those irresponsible 12 yr olds living off the system. Why can't they start a business or get a job instead of playing with a toy in a public park across the street from their home.

[magley64]

So if the gun was real, he should have waited until he was shot to counter? Cops have probably the shittiest job out there, everyone wants to second guess their decision and treat them like shit.

If he were a purple elephant and the gun were a choco-taco, should they have shot him with reddi whip then?

Play out all the what-ifs. What if the officer waited more than 2 seconds to find out exactly what was going on?

[blue03636]

If he were a purple elephant and the gun were a choco-taco, should they have shot him with reddi whip then?

Play out all the what-ifs. What if the officer waited more than 2 seconds to find out exactly what was going on?

 

You may not have to seconds to find out if you are going to live or not. That being said I'm done with your nonsense. 

[Uncle Punk]

I am no fan of the Cleveland Police. My worst ass beating came at their hands in public view. I was beaten again behind closed doors out of sight from anyone except the police in the holding cell with me & a friend that was also put in the cell at the same time. I couldn't swallow for three days without it hurting because I was choked so hard. The knots on my legs from the night sticks swelled so much that they bled. So I am certain there have been bad officers in that department but only from the private beating after I was in custody, the public beating was deserved and justified.

 

I say all that to say that I fully support the actions of the two officers in this one incident where the kid was shot. It is tragic for everyone involved but a very foreseeable outcome given the circumstances. Obviously there are several other outcomes possible, knowing what we know now none of them would have been tragic but not knowing what we know now there would have been just as many tragic outcomes possible.  

[magley64]

I say all that to say that I fully support the actions of the two officers in this one incident where the kid was shot. It is tragic for everyone involved but a very foreseeable outcome given the circumstances. Obviously there are several other outcomes possible, knowing what we know now none of them would have been tragic but not knowing what we know now there would have been just as many tragic outcomes possible.

Fully support? So if that was your child, you would be thanking them and shaking their hand for their excellence in their job?

[Uncle Punk]

Don't be an ignorant dumbass. Fuck no I wouldn't be shaking their hand if it were my child. I also wouldn't be vilifying them. The scenario had several possible outcomes and the one that happened is a perfectly acceptable one.

 

The police bravely confronted a man with a gun. They closed all the distance to him that they could. Possibly blocking his exit or minimizing distance of a foot pursuit. They kept the fight at a distance where their shots had the best chance of accurately hitting their target therefore lessoning the chance of collateral damage. These risks were taken in the name of protecting the community from a gunman menacing the neighborhood.

 

All risky moves on their part that most people wouldn't take for self-preservation reasons. They took risks at the chance of grave harm to themselves to protect the community. Yes, I fully support and commend these brave officers for their excellent work.

 

Had this guy killed someone a block over and was looking for another victim these two would be receiving commendations. Turns out that a good scolding, taking away the kids toy and marching him home to his parents would have worked. The two officers involved had no way of knowing what any of the background information was. I am thankful to know that there are brave people out there willing to take the risks these guys thought they were taking to protect us.

[Steve Butters]

Don't be an ignorant dumbass. Fuck no I wouldn't be shaking their hand if it were my child. I also wouldn't be vilifying them. The scenario had several possible outcomes and the one that happened is a perfectly acceptable one.

The police bravely confronted a man with a gun. They closed all the distance to him that they could. Possibly blocking his exit or minimizing distance of a foot pursuit. They kept the fight at a distance where their shots had the best chance of accurately hitting their target therefore lessoning the chance of collateral damage. These risks were taken in the name of protecting the community from a gunman menacing the neighborhood.

All risky moves on their part that most people wouldn't take for self-preservation reasons. They took risks at the chance of grave harm to themselves to protect the community. Yes, I fully support and commend these brave officers for their excellent work.

Had this guy killed someone a block over and was looking for another victim these two would be receiving commendations. Turns out that a good scolding, taking away the kids toy and marching him home to his parents would have worked. The two officers involved had no way of knowing what any of the background information was. I am thankful to know that there are brave people out there willing to take the risks these guys thought they were taking to protect us.

+2

[magley64]

I don't have kids, but if I did, and this was mine, come prison or hell, that man doesn't get away with it. He doesn't get away with murdering my child.

Edited December 10, 2014 by magley64

[Steve Butters]

Everyone be careful... Magz about to go around elbowing cops to death

[Pokey]

I don't have kids, but if I did, and this was mine, come prison or hell, that man doesn't get away with it. He doesn't get away with murdering my child.

 

Sounds like you should go join the protests, you might make some lifelong friends.