Ancient Confession Found: 'We Invented Jesus Christ'

[zx3vfr]

Having a written account of fallen cities doesn't mean god exists.

Dude, Detroit has fallen and we were around to witness it.

[magley64]

So yes God does allow bad things to happen, he must or free will could never exist.

Does god have free will?

[magley64]

You are correct hair splitting to be sure, however consider why don't we call all of them Abrhamic and leave it at that?

Minor differences have major differences in meaning which in turn effect the results.

They can't all be right at the same time, can they? So I do think it does make a difference.

Catholics, baptists, lutherans, mormons, etc.. are all "Christians". Just as sunni and shiite are all Muslims...

Therefore your claim "Christians believe X" holds no water, unless X = believes jesus is the son of Yaweh, and god himself, and worships him as such... that is one of the only universal beliefs among "christians" now catholics believe a handful of nutty things, and mormons believe another set of nutty things, and because they are a "subset" of 'Christianity" the only thing they are required to believe as a result is that jesus is the son of the god of abraham, and god himself.

[Pokey]

"Father Abraham had many sons...an many sons, had Father Abraham."

 

"I am one of them....and so are you, so lets just praise the Lord.....right arm"

[Strictly Street]

Catholics, baptists, lutherans, mormons, etc.. are all "Christians". Just as sunni and shiite are all Muslims...

Therefore your claim "Christians believe X" holds no water, unless X = believes jesus is the son of Yaweh, and god himself, and worships him as such... that is one of the only universal beliefs among "christians" now catholics believe a handful of nutty things, and mormons believe another set of nutty things, and because they are a "subset" of 'Christianity" the only thing they are required to believe as a result is that jesus is the son of the god of abraham, and god himself.

 

Interesting argument. I see where you're going with this something like all fords are cars but not all cars are fords. But let's take a look at it. Just because someone says something does not make it true.

 

Jeremiah 14:14

Then the Lord said to me, “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.

 

David Koresh said he was a Christian. So did Jim Jones. Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker too. Do you think they really were? I'll give you that they might have even thought they were but were they?

 

An interesting note of sorts, the generic or original Christianity goes something like this: Jesus died for all people to forgive their sins past present and future. Free will allows you to accept or reject this free offer. If you accept you are saved if not you aren't. So the real question is does the religion in question say this? Then the next question is something like this: Why are there so many versions of or as you put it sub sets of the main religion? We have to consider that their message might be different. If so, they might not be the real deal. If they are not, see the quote above.

 

Yea, the quote is out of context but I think it stands on it's own.

 

Not sure about the Suni vs. Shiite Muslim question. I'll have to ask a friend about that one. They may or may not consider themselves branches of the same faith.

Edited October 20, 2013 by Strictly Street

[magley64]

Interesting argument. I see where you're going with this something like all fords are cars but not all cars are fords. But let's take a look at it. Just because someone says something does not make it true.

Jeremiah 14:14

Then the Lord said to me, “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.

David Koresh said he was a Christian. So did Jim Jones. Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker too. Do you think they really were? I'll give you that they might have even thought they were but were they?

An interesting note of sorts, the generic or original Christianity goes something like this: Jesus died for all people to forgive their sins past present and future. Free will allows you to accept or reject this free offer. If you accept you are saved if not you aren't. So the real question is does the religion in question say this? Then the next question is something like this: Why are there so many versions of or as you put it sub sets of the main religion? We have to consider that their message might be different. If so, they might not be the real deal. If they are not, see the quote above.

Yea, the quote is out of context but I think it stands on it's own.

Not sure about the Suni vs. Shiite Muslim question. I'll have to ask a friend about that one. They may or may not consider themselves branches of the same faith.

Not only do they both consider themselves muslim, they both consider themselves the "correct" muslims.

Your claim that not all people who claim christianity are true christians. That's what's known as the "no true scotsman" fallacy...

Edited October 20, 2013 by magley64

[Revelstoker]

Somewhat fitting. I miss this guy.

 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2013 by Revelstoker

[zx3vfr]

Wow, and Christians wonder why people despise them, they don't even know what Christianity is.

Christianity is the basic belief that Jesus CHRIST died for our sins. If you believe that Jesus was crucified to save our mortal souls from burning in hell.p then you are a Christian.

Catholics (in general) believe that they are not worthy to speak with God and must go through a priest.

Protestants (in general) believe that they can speak and pray to God, Jesus freely. They also do not hold any regard to saint hood and the only ones that matter are Jesus and God.

Catholics on the other hand believe high regard to saints, but the bible tells us not to do that.

In short. Protestants take the bible for more face value, while Catholics still believe what the Catholic Church tells them their interpretation is.

[zx3vfr]

What bothers.me is anyone who accepts Jesus as their lord and savior is going to heaven. So I can murder and torture people, start a world war, commit suicide and still go to heaven, because I started my own religion, still accepted Jesus as savior and altered the bible (like every other sect of Christianity) to takeout all the stuff that was too Jewish.

Christians make me sick that according to their theology and rules that fucking Hitler is in heaven right now and if a Christian says otherwise, they are not being true to what their church preaches to them.

But Ghandi is burning in hell according to the church. :tard:

Edited October 20, 2013 by zx3vfr

[conn-e-rot]

And how could this be a shock to anyone?

[magley64]

Wow, and Christians wonder why people despise them, they don't even know what Christianity is.

Christianity is the basic belief that Jesus CHRIST died for our sins. If you believe that Jesus was crucified to save our mortal souls from burning in hell.p then you are a Christian.

Catholics (in general) believe that they are not worthy to speak with God and must go through a priest.

Protestants (in general) believe that they can speak and pray to God, Jesus freely. They also do not hold any regard to saint hood and the only ones that matter are Jesus and God.

Catholics on the other hand believe high regard to saints, but the bible tells us not to do that.

In short. Protestants take the bible for more face value, while Catholics still believe what the Catholic Church tells them their interpretation is.

The weirdest belief among catholics (that most catholics don't even know is part of catholocism) is the transsubstatiation of communion. The communion isn't a metaphor, according to catholic doctrine the wine really turns into jesus' blood and the wafers really turn into his flesh... cannibalism, delicious...

[Strictly Street]

Not only do they both consider themselves muslim, they both consider themselves the "correct" muslims.

Your claim that not all people who claim christianity are true christians. That's what's known as the "no true scotsman" fallacy...

 

Do you mean to say that they both consider the other to also be correct? Or that they are the correct ones and the other is not? Your statement could be taken either way.

 

I don't know about the Scotsman fallacy, sounds like you were in debate club in school. I'll have to look that up.

[DAC]

Do you mean to say that they both consider the other to also be correct? Or that they are the correct ones and the other is not? Your statement could be taken either way.

I don't know about the Scotsman fallacy, sounds like you were in debate club in school. I'll have to look that up.

Yes. World class. He's widely considered a master-debator. Edited October 20, 2013 by DAC

[Strictly Street]

Wow, and Christians wonder why people despise them, they don't even know what Christianity is.

Christianity is the basic belief that Jesus CHRIST died for our sins. If you believe that Jesus was crucified to save our mortal souls from burning in hell.p then you are a Christian.

Catholics (in general) believe that they are not worthy to speak with God and must go through a priest.

Protestants (in general) believe that they can speak and pray to God, Jesus freely. They also do not hold any regard to saint hood and the only ones that matter are Jesus and God.

Catholics on the other hand believe high regard to saints, but the bible tells us not to do that.

In short. Protestants take the bible for more face value, while Catholics still believe what the Catholic Church tells them their interpretation is.

 

Interesting, so does that mean that Catholics aren't Christians as they put their church before God? Or are they Christians but just doing it wrong? Not sure what you mean by this.

[magley64]

Do you mean to say that they both consider the other to also be correct? Or that they are the correct ones and the other is not? Your statement could be taken either way.

I don't know about the Scotsman fallacy, sounds like you were in debate club in school. I'll have to look that up.

No, tutored philosophy in college though...

And I was saying, like christian sects, with their particular subset of beliefs, most include the belief that they are the correct sect, and all others are wrong where they disagree.

Unitarian universalists are an exception to this general rule.

[magley64]

You have to remember, bible times are a lot like Quebec. 2 languages. Jesus was most likely speaking Aramaic at the time and the word does actually mean love less, so when it was translated from Aramaic, to Hebrew, into Latin, well you get the point it's telephone for spoken word that wasn't translated for 300-600 years

So the bible is susceptible to translational errors? Is it also susceptible to contextual errors? Factual errors? If that is the case, what credibility does the book have left?

[Gixxus Christ!]

Doesn't matter magz, you're allowed to cherry pick the parts you like anyway. Find me someone who follows all the purity laws in leviticus. 'Oh but that's old testament, doesn't count'. Ok then we can disregard the 10 commandmemts. 'No, Moses got those straight from god'. Ok so we should also use it as a moral code...let's murder entire cities, even the animals and then salt the earth so nothing will grow in the name of our lord. 'Well god chilled out a lot after he had a kid..'

All bullshit.

Have beer.

[Revelstoker]

Wow, and Christians wonder why people despise them, they don't even know what Christianity is.

 

You sir are correct.

 

http://www.pewforum.org/2010/09/28/u-s-religious-knowledge-survey/

[Strictly Street]

Wow, and Christians wonder why people despise them, they don't even know what Christianity is.

 

 

And

 

 

Your claim that not all people who claim christianity are true christians. That's what's known as the "no true scotsman" fallacy...

 

 

 

 

After reading back through a bunch of posts I realized where the dis-connect is and why people are having such a hard time with these concepts. No it's not the "true Scotsman" fallacy, although I now see why you thought that. And I see why there is confusion on what beliefs are what. So simple once I figured out what people were saying, so here goes.

 

Jesus being the Messiah and saying that no one could get to Heaven except through him and dying on the cross for all sins started Christianity. At that time there were Christians, Jews etc.

 

After some amount of time there were other groups for the sake of illustration let's say Roman Catholics. Are they Christian based? Yes. Are they the original Christians? No, they are not.

Are there original Christians walking around at this point in history? Yes there are. But they do not call themselves Roman Catholics they are still Christians..

 

So now we have two groups that may have started with the same thing but now are different. Saying one is the same as the other is factually incorrect.

 

So saying that Catholics and Lutherans are Christians makes it seem that all three groups believe the same thing which is not true. But what about the first group that is in fact Christian? Did they cease to exist because there are now new names for the two new kids on the block? No they did not. Are they still Christians? Yes they still are.

 

That they all use some of the same things does not make them the same.

 

Its the all fords are cars but not all cars are fords generalization trap.

 

So here is where the problems happen. When the groups in question are all assumed to be the same because they have some of the same things involved in their beliefs that started at a common point. Kinda like this.

 

I have a car

Oh, you have a model T

Um, no

But it has wheels right?

Yes it does.

So it's a model t, right?

No.

It says Ford on the front right?

Yes

Then it's model t, right?

No.

It has an engine, right?

Yes.

So it's a model t, right?

 

Anyway you see where I'm going with this one. It's Taurus or a Crown Vic. whatever, but not a model t.

 

There are straight up Christians out there right now today. There are straight up Catholics right now today out there too. But they are not the same in their beliefs.

 

Saying that a Roman Catholic is a Christian is just not true. Saying Roman Catholics are Christian based is true.

 

The disconnect I believe is that most people don't know that there are original Christians still walking around today.

 

I hope your following along with this and I'm being clear enough here to get the point across.

 

There are many Christian based religions out there but they are not the original Christianity.

Lumping them all together under one name ignores and dis-enfranchises the people who follow the original Christianity.

[magley64]

There are many Christian based religions out there but they are not the original Christianity.

Lumping them all together under one name ignores and dis-enfranchises the people who follow the original Christianity.

So you're claiming that your brand of christianity is the "original" christianity... and all other brands of christianity are knockoffs... if that's not the definition of the scotsman fallacy, I don't know what is...

[Strictly Street]

So you're claiming that your brand of christianity is the "original" christianity... and all other brands of christianity are knockoffs... if that's not the definition of the scotsman fallacy, I don't know what is...

 

It's not an either or concept. You don't seem to have a problem with Jews being Jews even after Jesus.

Yet he was born a Jew. Does that mean then that as soon as Christianity appeared there were no more Jews?

I'm just not getting your logic here.

[magley64]

It's not an either or concept. You don't seem to have a problem with Jews being Jews even after Jesus.

Yet he was born a Jew. Does that mean then that as soon as Christianity appeared there were no more Jews?

I'm just not getting your logic here.

Jesus was a jew, he didn't worship himself, he worshipped the god of abraham, which he knew as yaweh. It wasn't until long after he died that people started worshipping him, and conflating him with abraham's god.

[Strictly Street]

Jesus was a jew, he didn't worship himself, he worshipped the god of abraham, which he knew as yaweh. It wasn't until long after he died that people started worshipping him, and conflating him with abraham's god.

 

Now your just arguing to argue.

Sigh, your factually incorrect.

Although I have to admit you have brought up some good questions.

To nice of a day to spend it at the keyboard.

[magley64]

My factually incorrect what? Do you need a venn diagram of christianity?

[Pokey]

It all boils down to this for me.........when our end finally comes, we are either right in what we believe or we are wrong.